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AMERICA - MILITARY BRANCH & RANK INSIGNIA

E-10 for US Military

Army, Air Force, Navy, Marines

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E-10 for US Military

Unread postby Caim_Dubh » Mon Nov 24, 2003 6:27 pm

I read an article a while back in the Army Times that the idea of implementing an E-10 pay-grade in the US Military. I guess the idea was to come up with a grade for senior enlisted advisors to general & flag officers. Has anyone else heard of this? And, for that matter, does anyone else know of a military force that has an enlisted rank specifically for such a position?
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Unread postby Robb Mavins » Mon Dec 01, 2003 4:18 pm

Hmmm.. that is one I will have to think about for a while but of the top of my head, they only one that come to mind is the German Oberstabsfeldwebel which was (when I was in) a senior NCO for a "staff corps" or division. NATO considered this a senior E-9 along the French "Major"

(and forgive me no offense to the US Mil, but good god, - about the E-10. Some 15 years ago I read an odd book called "the Forever War" by Joe Haldeman which was pretty much a spoof of Bob Heinlein's Starship Troopers in which Private/ Sergeant/ Major Madela deals (over the years) with his First Sergeant, Field First and then finally his Second Field Officer, (an E-19) all holding the same role. “Top Soldier”)
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Unread postby Caim_Dubh » Mon Dec 01, 2003 9:59 pm

The idea of E-10 sounds alright when considering that there is an O-10, but I'll never be either of them so I don't worry about it. :lol:
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Re: E-10 for US Military

Unread postby dcfowler1 » Thu Apr 01, 2004 7:11 am

Caim_Dubh wrote:I read an article a while back in the Army Times that the idea of implementing an E-10 pay-grade in the US Military. I guess the idea was to come up with a grade for senior enlisted advisors to general & flag officers. Has anyone else heard of this? And, for that matter, does anyone else know of a military force that has an enlisted rank specifically for such a position?


A Congressional study was commissioned that approved this recommendation, but to date, I am aware of no pending legislation that would formally establish it.

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Unread postby Kedyw » Wed May 19, 2004 4:51 am

One thing. The E-10 rank grade, it IS a paygrade, but is not on the scale. It is known as the most senior enlisted dude in the army, navy, etc.
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Unread postby dcfowler1 » Wed May 19, 2004 6:12 am

Cody Blackshear wrote:One thing. The E-10 rank grade, it IS a paygrade, but is not on the scale. It is known as the most senior enlisted dude in the army, navy, etc.


No, it doesn't exist. That's why there has been a congressional study looking at creating it. There is currently NO legal basis for E-10 whatsoever. The Sergeant Major of the Army, the Master Chief Petty Officer of the Navy, the Chief Master Sergeant of the Air Force, the Sergeant Major of the Marine Corps, and the Master Chief Petty Officer of the Coast Guard are all E-9s, not E-10s, no matter what non-authoritative sources may say.

Section 205 of Title 37 of the United States Code specifically defines these ranks as being in the E-9 grade, but with special pay and allowances.

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Unread postby hhbooker2 » Tue Jan 11, 2005 9:31 am

E-10 could be applied to the Sergeant Major of the Army, Sergeant Major of the Marine Corps, Chief Master Sergeant of the Air Force, Master Chief Petty Officer of the Coast Guard, and Master Chief Petty Officer of the Navy, for starters! Sarge Booker :arrow:
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Unread postby dcfowler1 » Wed Jan 12, 2005 8:18 am

hhbooker2 wrote:E-10 could be applied to the Sergeant Major of the Army, Sergeant Major of the Marine Corps, Chief Master Sergeant of the Air Force, Master Chief Petty Officer of the Coast Guard, and Master Chief Petty Officer of the Navy, for starters! Sarge Booker :arrow:


The idea for the proposed E-10 grade, was to not just include the five top enlisteds, but also command enlisted advisors for top-echelon commands, like Army/USAF major commands, Navy fleets, etc.

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Unread postby hhbooker2 » Wed Jan 12, 2005 9:14 pm

dcfowler1 wrote:
hhbooker2 wrote:E-10 could be applied to the Sergeant Major of the Army, Sergeant Major of the Marine Corps, Chief Master Sergeant of the Air Force, Master Chief Petty Officer of the Coast Guard, and Master Chief Petty Officer of the Navy, for starters! Sarge Booker :arrow:


The idea for the proposed E-10 grade, was to not just include the five top enlisteds, but also command enlisted advisors for top-echelon commands, like Army/USAF major commands, Navy fleets, etc.

Dave


DAVE: Yes, but of course, include Army/USAF major commands, Navy fleets, etc., would give these men and women something more in pay and prestige, a promotion up, not moving sideways. Sarge Booker :)
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Unread postby gghbisa » Sun Jan 04, 2009 10:24 pm

It should be noted that Sergeant Major Gainey retired in april with no replacement named. And now the SEAC section of the JCS web site as disappeared.
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E-10

Unread postby Lee Ragan » Fri Jan 09, 2009 5:48 pm

Good lord, the Army already has nine enlisted pay grades with 10 ranks, five Warrant Officer ranks and ten comissioned officer ranks. How many ranks do they need?
The other U.S. services have a bit less in ranks than the Army, but all have a minimum of 19 ranks not counting warrant officers. Sounds like we're getting to the point where there is overkill on the number of different ranks/pay grades! smilies-09
Just my two cents worth.
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Unread postby ChrisWI » Fri Jan 09, 2009 7:44 pm

I agree Lee, I feel we need to reduce the number of NCO and Warrant Officer ranks ... not create even more.

I would leave the officer ranks alone except the 5 star rank would be held by the branch's Chief of Staff. I would reduce the Warrant Officer ranks from 5 to 3. I will make a chart for each branch and present them next week.
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Unread postby dcfowler » Sat Jan 10, 2009 9:27 am

You're rather blithely ignoring the fact that career warrant officers need a path for career progression and advancement in rank and pay over a 20- or 30-year career, just like NCOs and commissioned officers do.

A WO1 has roughly the seniority and status as a 2LT. Likewise, a CW5 is roughly equivalent to a LTC. US warrant officers are not like European WOs.

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Unread postby dcfowler » Sat Jan 10, 2009 9:43 am

Regarding the number of ranks, all of the five armed services are authorized by law 24 pay grades. Where variation occurs in actual use, it is in the warrant ranks, as different services have different structures and progressions for them.

USA uses 24
USMC uses 24
USN uses 23
USCG uses 22
USAF uses 19

Are 24 too many? The structure and number of commissioned officer ranks are very similar across nations. Some have one or two more than the US.

For officers in the US, typically ranks alternate with having line and staff responsibilities as the officer gets promoted and gains experience. Thus in the Army, for junior officers, O-1 leads a platoon or section; O-2 goes to staff; O-3 commands a company, battery or troop.

For senior officers, O-4 goes to staff; O-5 commands a battalion or squadron. O-6 could be staff, or could command a brigade or group.

The US does have a few more enlisted ranks than say, typical Commonwealth armies, but that just means they do it differently.

For enlisted, E-1 to E-3 are the recruits and apprentices, receiving basic military and technical training, and getting their first job experiences. E-4 to E-6 are junior NCOs, gaining increasing responsibilities and supervisory experience, and E-7 through E-9 are senior NCOs, who serve as senior enlisted leaders in increasingly larger organizations.

These numbers aren't arbitrary. Both tradition and function play into how many there are.

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Unread postby Caim_Dubh » Wed Jan 14, 2009 3:34 am

Of course, most of this has nothing to do with the US Armed Forces implementing an E-10 pay grade...but here you go anyway.

Does anyone here know how many total appointments there are for all British Army warrant officers? Also, how many enlisted ranks do the Germans have?

As for US warrant officers I, too, think their time has passed. Granted, I'm going to be appointed as a WO1 in March, but regardless I went the way of the warrant because I wanted to stay in my chosen field. I believe the US Navy has the right idea with Limited Duty Officers, and I also believe the US Army should look at this as a replacement for the traditional warrant officer system.

The Army uses its warrant officers as commissioned officers--yes, I know US Army warrants ARE commissioned at CW2, but the whole reason they started receiving commissions was so they could take up the slack due to the commissioned officer shortages. I worked regularly with a company that had a CW2 as the executive officer, and a WO1 as a platoon leader. I also know a retired CW3 who was his brigade's S-3 actual--typically held by a lieutenant colonel or major.

Of course, the Navy duplicates effort by having both warrant officers and LDOs, and the Air Force holds to the belief that there is no place for warrant officers in general, but those are different issues entirely.

So, if--for a day--I were the 5-star Chief of Staff of the Army (thanks to ChrisWI's suggestion, very good idea by the way) I would do away with the warrant officer system entirely, replace it with the LDO system, and promote all warrant officers to the generally equivelant O-grade, i.e. WO1 to 2LT and so on with CW5's making LTC. I'd also instate an O-6 LDO position. So, on the next day instead of reverting to WO1, I'd be a 30-year-old 2LT, and instead of retiring as a CW4 or CW5, I'd retire as a MAJ or LTC, thereby putting myself in line for all the lucrative Haliburton and CNN military correspondant jobs. smilies-15

Seriously, though, LDO is the way to go.
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Re: E-10

Unread postby ncohistory » Mon Jun 22, 2009 4:45 pm

Lee Ragan wrote:Good lord, the Army already has nine enlisted pay grades with 10 ranks....


Sorry, I count 12 enlisted ranks.

PV2
PFC
SPC
CPL
SGT
SSG
SFC
MSG
1SG
SGM
CSM
SMA
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Unread postby dcfowler » Tue Jun 23, 2009 4:06 am

13, you missed PV1.
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Unread postby ncohistory » Tue Jun 23, 2009 12:36 pm

dcfowler wrote:13, you missed PV1.


I only counted rank with insignia, the PVT has no insignia. But you are correct, thanks for the addittion
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Re: E-10

Unread postby Lee Ragan » Tue Jun 23, 2009 8:26 pm

ncohistory wrote:
Lee Ragan wrote:Good lord, the Army already has nine enlisted pay grades with 10 ranks....


Sorry, I count 12 enlisted ranks.

PV2
PFC
SPC
CPL
SGT
SSG
SFC
MSG
1SG
SGM
CSM
SMA

You have 2 ranks at E-4 Paygrade (Spec. & Corporal), then you have 2 ranks at E-8 paygrade (Master Sergeant & First Sergeant), and three ranks at E-9 paygrade (Sergeant Major, Command Sergeant Major and Sergeant Major of the Army).
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