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AMERICA - MILITARY BRANCH & RANK INSIGNIA

Pre-Unification Army Insignia

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Pre-Unification Army Insignia

Unread postby 875Lions » Wed Jan 28, 2004 5:17 pm

I'm trying to find the rank structure (other ranks, not the officers) of the Canadian Army prior to Unification in 1968. I already know most of the ranks (L.Cpl., Cpl., Sgt., S.Sgt.,), but I'm having trouble finding the warrant officer ranks. I admit, in the Canadian section of rankinisignia.info, it does show Canadian Insignia (Military Police) before 1968, but I'm not clear on the warrant officers...it says WO, WOII, WOI. Shouldn't WO be somethig like, WOIII, or RQMS?
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Re: Pre-Unification Army Insignia

Unread postby Yasu » Thu Jan 29, 2004 1:42 pm

875Lions wrote:I'm trying to find the rank structure (other ranks, not the officers) of the Canadian Army prior to Unification in 1968. I already know most of the ranks (L.Cpl., Cpl., Sgt., S.Sgt.,), but I'm having trouble finding the warrant officer ranks. I admit, in the Canadian section of rankinisignia.info, it does show Canadian Insignia (Military Police) before 1968, but I'm not clear on the warrant officers...it says WO, WOII, WOI. Shouldn't WO be somethig like, WOIII, or RQMS?


Try this site which may answer your query http://rankmaven.tripod.com/caniarmold.htm
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Re: Pre-Unification Army Insignia

Unread postby Robb Mavins » Thu Jan 29, 2004 3:06 pm

875Lions wrote:I'm trying to find the rank structure (other ranks, not the officers) of the Canadian Army prior to Unification in 1968. I already know most of the ranks (L.Cpl., Cpl., Sgt., S.Sgt.,), but I'm having trouble finding the warrant officer ranks. I admit, in the Canadian section of rankinisignia.info, it does show Canadian Insignia (Military Police) before 1968, but I'm not clear on the warrant officers...it says WO, WOII, WOI. Shouldn't WO be somethig like, WOIII, or RQMS?


Couple of quick notes:
As with most British/ Commonwealth ranking systems there was a lot of confusion.
In Canada WOIII was created before the second world war and added a level that was really aimed at creating very close to today's Canadian WO a platoon level (or at least another Warrant below CSM)
The original thought in Great Britain was that this would create an intermediate level and also allow for a staff NCO level, without making staff NCO's WOII’s and that a WOI would be above an RSM, an RSM would be a WOII and on down. However a basic rule of most military structures is that you can promote me up, not down and WOIII was pretty much doomed to failure in that regard.

WO III were at the Staff, Platoon, Section (admin) , Troop level
WO II generally at the Squadron/ Company Sergeant Major (CSM) level
WOI was always a Conductor / Regimental Sergeant Major (RSM) level

The confusing thing in most arms, is that while Staff Sergeant or Colour Sergeant existed it was common for a Sergeant to be promoted directly to WOII (CSM) skipping the grade of Staff or Colour Sergeant.. Staff or Colour Sergeant existed almost more as a post rather than a rank, at least in the combat arms. In the Staff Corps it was defiantly a step on the way up

In the British Army today the RQMS wears the old WOIII badge but is clearly a WOII in rank and position. ( called Mister ----- and Sir though not saluted)
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Warrant ranks

Unread postby Herrwiggly » Thu Jan 29, 2004 5:29 pm

Hi everybody herrwiggly here. on the subject just under discussion, the Warrant ranks in the British Army were modified in1937 to give more promotion chances for other ranks.
When the WO111 rank was introduced the rank insignia was 4 chevrons point up worn on the forearm,WO11 was a crown also worn on the forearm. Later on the Wo111 rank adopted the crown, WO11 the crown with wreath, this lasted until 1947 when the ranks were reviewed. The WO111 was abolished, the crown was reused for WO11 and the crown with wreath was and still is the rank badge for Regimental Quartermaster Sergeant (RQMS) ranking as WO11. (Infantry)
As Robb pointed out in the infantry, the insignia of crown over 3 stripes was and is the rank of Colour Sergeant, but this rank is given to the Company Quartermaster Sergeant (CQMS), Sergeants being promoted to WO11, but in the corps, i.e. Royal Signal Corps the rank is Staff Sergeant and is a normal ppromotion step between Sergeant and WO11.
With the introduction of crown in wreath for the new rank of Charge Chief Petty Officer in the Royal Navy, I wonder if this will be modified to WO11. I think I am correct in saying when the WO1 rank was first introduced (royal arms) this rank was known as Fleet Chief Petty Officer. I hope this has been of some help and I suppose is in the wrong section, for that Iappologise in advance. :D :D :D Cheers.
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Unread postby Olivier Comault » Fri Jan 30, 2004 4:27 pm

Hi !

While we are, just a little question... Before WW1, the Canadian General Officers wore beautiful embroideries made of maple leaf ( instead of oak )
Did that lasted until 1968 ?.. I don't believe they are still in use...

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Unread postby Olivier Comault » Fri Jan 30, 2004 4:32 pm

Hi !

While we are, just a little question... Before WW1, the Canadian General Officers wore beautiful embroideries made of maple leaf ( instead of oak )
Did that lasted until 1968 ?.. I don't believe they are still in use...

Olivier
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Re: Warrant ranks

Unread postby Necrothesp » Fri Feb 06, 2004 2:30 pm

Herrwiggly wrote:As Robb pointed out in the infantry, the insignia of crown over 3 stripes was and is the rank of Colour Sergeant, but this rank is given to the Company Quartermaster Sergeant (CQMS), Sergeants being promoted to WO11, but in the corps, i.e. Royal Signal Corps the rank is Staff Sergeant and is a normal ppromotion step between Sergeant and WO11.
With the introduction of crown in wreath for the new rank of Charge Chief Petty Officer in the Royal Navy, I wonder if this will be modified to WO11. I think I am correct in saying when the WO1 rank was first introduced (royal arms) this rank was known as Fleet Chief Petty Officer. I hope this has been of some help and I suppose is in the wrong section, for that Iappologise in advance. :D :D :D Cheers.


A crown over three chevrons denotes the rank of Staff Sergeant in all corps and arms (except the Household Cavalry) and in all corps and arms it is a normal promotion step between Sergeant and WO2. Some Staff Sergeants hold the appointment of CQMS (or SQMS, BQMS etc), but they are still Staff Sergeants in rank, just as CSMs are still WO2s in rank. All Staff Sergeants in infantry regiments, in whatever post or appointment (including CQMS), are always known as Colour Sergeants. It's only in the Royal Marines that Colour Sergeant is the actual rank title.

Charge Chief Petty Officers are indeed to be designated WO2s. When WOs were reintroduced in the RN they were indeed titled FCPOs.
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Re: Warrant ranks

Unread postby Robb Mavins » Fri Feb 06, 2004 10:51 pm

Interesting - 2 things the RN has decided to use WO2 as opposed to WOII becuase in part of the ... internet and not wantng the II to be confused as per here http://212.24.85.85/01/people_matters/s ... hy_not.htm

When the Fleet Chef was introduced, it confirmed the new grades as being "non officer" a very separte thing from the RN Warrant Officer of WWII era who were "Officers" admitted to the Wardroom or the previous Warrants some of whom held equal to commissioned rank.
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Unread postby Denat » Wed May 05, 2004 10:56 am

Olivier Comault wrote:Hi !

While we are, just a little question... Before WW1, the Canadian General Officers wore beautiful embroideries made of maple leaf ( instead of oak )
Did that lasted until 1968 ?.. I don't believe they are still in use...

Olivier


An unusual Canadian pattern of gorget with maple leaves was used during WW I :arrow:
Image
in place of the usual british oak leaves :arrow:
Image
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe that maple leaves pattern was discontinued after WW I.
Here is great site about Canadian Provost Corps / Canadian Military Police - history, uniforms and insignia :arrow: http://www.mpmuseum.org/
We shall have to shift those fellows with the bayonet, old boy!
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Unread postby Denat » Fri May 28, 2004 7:54 pm

Undoubtedly not a Canadian, but still using the usual british oak leaves :arrow:
Image
We shall have to shift those fellows with the bayonet, old boy!
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Unread postby DvTonder » Sat May 29, 2004 12:07 am

As part of my uniform collection, I have a Candian General's cuffs, tails and collar from the old Scarlet Tunic that has the most beautiful maple leaf embroideries. It is sad that we dont use them any more :(

Those interested in pictures, please let me know

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Unread postby sketor7558 » Sat May 29, 2004 1:21 am

u mean similar like this
Image
also please post your pictures
i think those kinds of uniforms will be reinsituted of the next coronation and do you or anybody have any info on british full dress uniforms
thanks
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Re: Pre-Unification Army Insignia

Unread postby hhbooker2 » Sun Jan 16, 2005 10:01 pm

875Lions wrote:I'm trying to find the rank structure (other ranks, not the officers) of the Canadian Army prior to Unification in 1968. I already know most of the ranks (L.Cpl., Cpl., Sgt., S.Sgt.,), but I'm having trouble finding the warrant officer ranks. I admit, in the Canadian section of rankinisignia.info, it does show Canadian Insignia (Military Police) before 1968, but I'm not clear on the warrant officers...it says WO, WOII, WOI. Shouldn't WO be somethig like, WOIII, or RQMS?


LIONS: If you want, go to http://www.webshots.com/users/booker2 and see nine photo albums on CANADA insignia past and present, photos of actual rank insignia. See also http://www.militarybadges.info/ as well as http://www.diggerhistory.info/ as both website have sections on CANADA andm their badges too! Sarge Booker :) :) :) Email me and I can add you to the webshots directly so you can download anything you wish from there and use it as you please! Sarge Booker (hhbooker2@military.com)
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Unread postby Laurence Strong » Sun Oct 29, 2006 2:36 am

Here you go from 1945 to 1968.

The chevrons with the Sgt showing a Sgt with the RCA
Image
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Unread postby Laurence Strong » Sun Oct 29, 2006 2:37 am

WO III

Image
Always looking to buy Heeresverwaltungs (HV) and Sonderfuhrer items. Insignias, paperwork, photo's, Soldbuchs......
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Unread postby Laurence Strong » Sun Oct 29, 2006 2:38 am

WO II

Image
Always looking to buy Heeresverwaltungs (HV) and Sonderfuhrer items. Insignias, paperwork, photo's, Soldbuchs......
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Unread postby Laurence Strong » Sun Oct 29, 2006 2:39 am

WO I

Hope this helps

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