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AMERICA - MILITARY BRANCH & RANK INSIGNIA

Warrant Officer Status

Army, Air Force, Navy, Marines

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Warrant Officer Status

Unread postby Blakwhit » Fri Jun 10, 2005 4:16 pm

Ok so I have a question, In the US military Warrant officers are considered officers, are called sir, saluted and what not. What I curious about is there position in other militaries throughout the world. for example in the British and Canadian Militaries they are always listed with the enlisted ranks what is there status else where, enlisted? Officer? Other?

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Unread postby dcfowler1 » Fri Jun 10, 2005 6:39 pm

Although the US is not completely unique in regarding warrant officers as "officers" (albeit a unique category of them), it is very nearly so. The only nation that I can think of that also does so is Poland.

As far as classifying WO's of other militaries as NCOs, I suspect some UK posters in this forum might say they were neither officer or NCO, but a unique class of servicemember.

However, according to NATO convention (see STANAG 2116) all other NATO nations's WOs are classed between OR (other ranks) -7 and OR-9, equivalent to US E-7 to E-9.

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Unread postby LONDON » Fri Jun 10, 2005 11:58 pm

I'm not sure whether the Poles still classify their WOs as officers as I understand their WO and NCO corps have been merged.

From a British point of view, Warrant Officers are a separate category of non-commissioned (i.e. enlisted) rank, appointed by a Warrant from the Defence Secretary and addressed as 'Sir' by junior ranks but not saluted. Warrant Officers unlike NCOs can also be members of Court Martials. They are often (incorrectly) included in the NCO category. Officers address RN and RAF WOs as 'Mister' whereas Army WOs tend to be addressed by their appointment (e.g. RSM, CSM etc).

However, they carry out similar roles to E8 and E9 level personnel in the US Forces, so in that respect they are NCOs rather than Officers. The Royal Navy had Officer type WOs before 1949, but current WOs in the RN have the same status as their army and RAF counterparts.

WOs in other Commonwealth countries such as Australia, New Zealand and Canada have the same status as British WOs. Singapore has replaced the British type WO2 and WO1 with four WO ranks 2WO, 1WO, MWO (master) and SWO (senior). Although these now carry out roles formerly allocated to Officers as well as the more traditional roles such as RSM, WOs in the Singaspore armed forces are still enlisted personnel.

I can imagine this must cause some confusion when US WOs are serving with WOs in other armies.
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Warrant Officer status

Unread postby Herrwiggly » Sat Jun 11, 2005 8:37 am

Hi everybody, well, WO''s in the Britiish Army, I well remember WO's from my time in the Regular Army in the 60's, allthough there is only 1 rank between a WO11 (Company Sergeant Major) and a WO1 (Regimental Sergeant Major, Infantry) there is a world of difference of power and status. The WO11 dressed as an enlisted man, his uniform identical to a Pprivate soldier apart from rank insignia and any awards of course with black footwear, but not so for the WO1. He dressed as an Officer with Sam Browne belt and brown footwear, a totally different appearance from the former. Both of these men were not saluted but always addressed as "SIR" and woe betide the soldiier who did not measure up.
The difference in status and power can be explained by the fact that the WO1 had the authority to order an officer of his parade ground if the aforesaid officer did not come up to expectations. As my platoon were rehearsing for our passing out parade,under the authority of thhe Regimental Sergeant Major, we saw and heard him order the O.D. (officer of the day) a lieutenant off his parade ground and do it again this time in a proper manner. The Lt. duly left rather red faced and made his entrance again. A WO11 does not have that power. The WO1 is certainly feared more than any officer. :D :D :D Cheers.
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Unread postby LONDON » Sat Jun 11, 2005 11:40 am

Herrwiggly

You're certainly right about Warrant Officers Class 1!

Here's a picture of a WO1 in Officer Pattern Service Dress from the Household Cavalry.

He's probably a Regimental Corporal Major although the caption doesn't specify.

http://www.hcmr-photos.org/brickhanging ... 000054.htm

This is a fascinating site with many other pictures of uniforms and ranks

http://www.hcmr-photos.org/brickhanging-2004/

http://www.hcmr-photos.org
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Unread postby LONDON » Sat Jun 11, 2005 12:17 pm

...And here's a WO2 wearing 'Other Ranks' No2 Dress with Officer Pattern shirt - probably the Regimental Quartermaster Corporal

http://www.hcmr-photos.org/brickhanging ... 000013.htm

Another Warrant Officer Class 2 is pictured below:

http://www.hcmr-photos.org/brickhanging ... 000040.htm

He's probably a Squadron Corporal Major - note the badge of rank which differs from the that of the Regimental Quartermaster Corporal
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Warrannt Offiicer status

Unread postby Herrwiggly » Sat Jun 11, 2005 1:50 pm

Hi London, your first picture sure does bring back memories of times long ago, of course minus the riding breeches and boots, thats a RASM alright,we in the infantry called them a right a----le of a sergeant major. The second photo I know as RQMS (Regimental Quartermaster Sergeant) ranking as WO11. the third photo is to me CSM ((Company Sergeant Major) ie WO11. We had, at battalion in Germany in 1963, we were told, the youngest RSM in the British Army RSM Denny only 32 years old, a former junior RSM. I well rememmber his first order on company orders,, every man in the regardless of rank will get a haircut, and he would check as evey man had to give his last 4 numbers to the camp barber. As it happened I had just had a haircut so I had two that day, talk about a skinhead. Ah well happy days. :D :D :D Cheers.
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Unread postby LONDON » Sat Jun 11, 2005 4:38 pm

In relation to the Original Thread, the Indian Forces have 'Junior Commissioned Officers' which are separate from NCOs and Officers.
In the Indian Air Force these have the ranks of Junior Warrant Officer, Warrant Officer and Master Warrant Officer. They are saluted by NCOs but have a combined mess with Sergeants (SNCOs Mess). In the Indian Army however, JCOs have their own separate mess (i.e. club)
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Unread postby Robbie JN » Sat Jun 11, 2005 7:03 pm

A really strange thing was when the Royal Marines had both the old style RN WOs and Commissioned WOs aswell as having RSMs and Quartermaster Sergeants. Normally they are the same, in the army, as in the latter being appointments of the former, or at least the closest thing to the old style WOs.
http://www.kotfsc.com/aviation/britmarineranks.htm
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Unread postby LONDON » Sat Jun 11, 2005 7:44 pm

When RSMs were introduced into the Royal Marines in the 1940s, they had the same rank badge as an army WO1, but were classified as NCOs rather than WOs. This didn't change until the Warrant Rank was reintroduced into the Royal Navy and Royal Marines in 1970 (the Officer type WOs in the RN and RM were all commissioned in 1949 and renamed Branch Officers, a rank which existed until 1957)
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Unread postby Necrothesp » Fri Aug 26, 2005 1:14 am

LONDON wrote:Herrwiggly

You're certainly right about Warrant Officers Class 1!

Here's a picture of a WO1 in Officer Pattern Service Dress from the Household Cavalry.

He's probably a Regimental Corporal Major although the caption doesn't specify.

http://www.hcmr-photos.org/brickhanging ... 000054.htm



I would say he's almost certainly an RCM. RSMs/RCMs are among the only WO1s to wear the Sam Browne. The only others I know of who do are Garrison Sergeant Majors, Conductors RLC and the Academy Sergeant Major.
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Unread postby Necrothesp » Fri Aug 26, 2005 1:19 am

dcfowler1 wrote:As far as classifying WO's of other militaries as NCOs, I suspect some UK posters in this forum might say they were neither officer or NCO, but a unique class of servicemember.


Very true. The personnel of a British unit are officially "The Officers, Warrant Officers, Non-Commissioned Officers and Men". You'll see it on many war memorials.
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Unread postby Canet » Fri Aug 26, 2005 1:36 pm

The category groups - Officers, Warrant Officers, NCOs and men can also chance - that happened in Finnish Defence Forces after WWII. Earlier the WOs were a special group between Officers and NCOs. There was 5 different classes of WO. The titles were in most cases depenting of the speciality - as WO's were called "Master Specialists", they could have rank titles like Master Gunner, Master Mechanic, Master Signalist, Master Pilot etc.

After the war the WO ranks were united to one rank which became the senior NCO rank - it is still translated as Chief Warrant Officer - but there is no "warrant" - I know because I am one (in reserve).

As the custom to address your superior does not chance with the rank, there was now difference in that aspect.

So there was time when in Finnish Armed Forces there was no less than 5 different groups of men: Officers, WOs, NCOs, Enlisted men and Conscript men.
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Unread postby Erskine Calderon » Fri Aug 26, 2005 7:21 pm

Canet,

Not to be a bother, but I believe the word that you need to use is "change" - meaning to make different or alter, not "chance" - meaning to accept the hazard of or risk.

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Unread postby reccedude » Fri Aug 26, 2005 8:02 pm

Hi I'm a newbe here,
But the U.S. military (U.S. army, Navy , USMC and USCG) do have warrant officers and grand them separate codes as WO and CWO in the STANAG's besides enlisted (OR) and officers(OF).
Strangely enough this honour is only granted to U.S. warrant officers andd not to others (like myself). Stlill, when amongst U.S. military personell i'm granted all privileges and respects becoming a Chief Warrant Officer anyway, and in practical it means enlisted and junior officers show their respect towards any warrant officer rank.
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Unread postby LONDON » Fri Aug 26, 2005 9:29 pm

reccedude wrote:Hi I'm a newbe here,
But the U.S. military (U.S. army, Navy , USMC and USCG) do have warrant officers and grand them separate codes as WO and CWO in the STANAG's besides enlisted (OR) and officers(OF).
Strangely enough this honour is only granted to U.S. warrant officers andd not to others (like myself). Stlill, when amongst U.S. military personell i'm granted all privileges and respects becoming a Chief Warrant Officer anyway, and in practical it means enlisted and junior officers show their respect towards any warrant officer rank.


reccedude

As you say, the US Army is the only NATO force that gives its WOs officer status. Are you a warrant officer and which army are you in? Are you an OR8 or an OR9 in NATO terms?
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Unread postby valtrex » Sat Aug 27, 2005 4:07 pm

In the Greek Military, WO is the highest enlisted personnel rank. Even the Draftee (or Conscript) Candidate Officers (men who have decided to serve their obligatory military service as officers) outrank WOs.
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Unread postby LONDON » Sat Aug 27, 2005 6:39 pm

The WO will be more highly regarded than the Conscript Officer, though.
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Warrant Officer Status

Unread postby Npittet » Mon Aug 29, 2005 3:40 pm

Hello,
Just about the status of Warrant Officer. In Switzerland we have the so called "officier spécialiste" or "FachOffizier" [a unique rank insigna : a "diamond", but a lot of "pay ranks" (some have the same pay as a colonel]. As a staff officer I have encounter a lot of them, but I've never seen anyone salute them (even young soldiers or young nco's fresh from application school !).

About the OR-8 & OR-9 ranks. The new rank structure call them officially in english : OR-8 (adjudant) : Warrant Officer;
OR-9 (adjudant d'Etat-Major) Staff Warrant Officer; (adjudant major) Senior Warrant Officer; (adjudant chef) Chief Warrant Officer.

Here (sorry only in french) is the article of the LAAM (the federal law about the army) about the "officiers spécialistes" :

Art. 104 Officiers spécialistes
1 En cas de besoin, des fonctions d’officiers peuvent ętre confiées ŕ des sous-officiers, des appointés et des soldats ayant des connaissances particuličres. Ils doivent accomplir les services liés ŕ ces fonctions, ŕ l’exception des services d’instruction exigés pour un grade supérieur ou une nouvelle fonction.

2 Ils sont nommés officiers spécialistes et ont les męmes droits et devoirs que les officiers exerçant la męme fonction.

3 Le Conseil fédéral fixe les fonctions qui peuvent leur ętre confiées et rčgle les conditions de nomination.

4 Si la fonction d’officier n’est plus exercée, la nomination au rang d’officier spécialiste demeure en rčgle générale acquise. Le Conseil fédéral fixe les exceptions.

NB : No more numbers on the shoulder insignias. Only the rank on plain colour.

Best Regards and sorry for the English ...
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Unread postby LONDON » Sun Oct 02, 2005 8:10 pm

The issue of US WO status has been the subject of considerable debate and discussion!!

http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread ... did=189612
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Unread postby kaldi » Sun Oct 02, 2005 9:31 pm

LONDON wrote:The issue of US WO status has been the subject of considerable debate and discussion!!

http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread ... did=189612
Looks like someone is not getting really good answers from other forum´s.
I am not goeing to answer this Q. but i believed that wo´s where saluted as they are officers.
In Iceland here are no warrant officers found in any organisation but the coast guard is thinking of adding some wo ranks in so i might find out soon how it is gonna be here
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Unread postby Peter » Sun Nov 20, 2005 9:56 pm

Dear,

Do have Warrant Officers (US style) authority over US NCO's or are they more functionaries/technicians?
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Unread postby ChrisWI » Sun Nov 20, 2005 11:49 pm

Peter wrote:Dear,

Do have Warrant Officers (US style) authority over US NCO's or are they more functionaries/technicians?

From what I understand that are NCO's with officer pay and status .... so yes they are technican types (like most Army pilots are WO's, etc).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warrant_Officer

The U.S. Army warrant officer (AWO) is the highly specialized expert and trainer who, by gaining progressive levels of expertise and leadership, operates, maintains, administers, and manages the Army's equipment, support activities, or technical systems for an entire career. The Army program began with the warranted Headquarters Clerk in 1896.
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Unread postby Peter » Mon Nov 21, 2005 12:01 am

Dear Chris

Thank you for the reference to the Wikipedia article,
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Unread postby Peter » Mon Nov 21, 2005 12:27 am

About Belgian Warrant Officers (US Style)
In the Belgian Military Components (=Forces) are only two Warrant Officers (US Style), and they only exist in the Medical Component (was Medical Service): "Verpleegkundige (=Nurse)" and "Hoofdverpleegkundige (=Chief Nurse)". The first has a 3 year Professional Bachelor Nursing degree instat of a 4 year Academic Master degree that is normal required for commission to Second Lieutenant. The Chief Nurse has an additional evening school degree of about 1 year fulltime study to become Chief Nurse. They are actually CIVILIANS who did an entrance examiniation to become affilated within the Medical Service. As far as I know there insignia are just used to show there status/function, they hold no command authority. And they are addresses as Meneer/Mister/Messieur. Insignia:
Nurse: 1 thin Gold stripe with Gold Lamp of Nursing in Gold Wreath (like Onderluitenant / Sous-Lieutenant / Second Lieutenant in the Medical Component (was Service);
Chief Nurse: 1 thick Gold stripe with Gold Lamp of Nursing in Gold Wreath (like Majoor / Major omitting the top thin stripe).
These insignia are so rare that they are seldom menitionned officialy but they exist because I have both types.
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Unread postby Zdzislaw Rudzki » Mon Nov 21, 2005 10:27 am

Peter, can you scan and send me an image of those Nurse insingnia
my e-mail is z.rudzki@zep.pl
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Unread postby dcfowler1 » Mon Nov 21, 2005 8:45 pm

[quote="ChrisWI]From what I understand that are NCO's with officer pay and status .... so yes they are technican types (like most Army pilots are WO's, etc).[quote]

This is not correct. In the US, warrant officers at grade W-2 and above receive presidential commissions, and thus, are "commissioned officers". Warrant officers in grade W-1 (Only USA, USMC and USPHS at present) receive warrants from their respective service secretaries, but there are moves afoot to commission them as well.

Neither are all warrant officers technicians, though indeed most are. Army aviators command aircraft, and thus are by definition, officers of the line, not technical specialists. Likewise, you will also see Coast Guard warrant officers commanding boat stations. Finally, I believe that USMC warrant officer gunners are not considered to be technicians either.

Warrant officers are officers, and can lawfully give orders to anyone in an inferior rank.

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Unread postby Peter » Wed Nov 23, 2005 12:56 am

Zdzislaw Rudzki wrote:Peter, can you scan and send me an image of those Nurse insingnia
my e-mail is z.rudzki@zep.pl


I will send you as fast as I can an image of those insignia, but I am new to scanning (how do I dare to tell it) and I have to figure out how I can get descent images for you.
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Unread postby Zdzislaw Rudzki » Wed Nov 23, 2005 1:10 am

thanks in advance :)
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Unread postby I.Q. » Tue Nov 29, 2005 10:29 pm

I'm new there, so at first I'd like to say "hello!", and I'm sorry, but my english is not very good :P

I've got one question: Why there is no Warrant Officers in US Air Force. I didn't find information about that.

Thanks,
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Unread postby dcfowler1 » Wed Nov 30, 2005 2:15 am

The short answer:

Warrant officers are still legally authorized for the US Air Force (all five grades), but the last CWO4 retired in 1992, and none have been appointed since.

The reason is related to the introduction of the E-8 and E-9 grades in the late 1950s, and the USAF made a decision to phase out warrant officers (which then numbered in the thousands), and concentrate their senior technical specialists in the E-8 and E-9 grades instead.

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Unread postby I.Q. » Mon Dec 05, 2005 9:22 pm

Ok. I've got one question. Why in U.S. Navy ther are only three Warrant Officer's ranks.

Thanks.
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Unread postby dcfowler1 » Tue Dec 06, 2005 12:48 am

The US Navy has five warrant officer grades by law, W-1 through W-5, and uses four of the five. The use of W-1 was discontinued around 1976, mostly due to the fact that the Navy, unlike the Army, does not recruit warrant officers from civil life, but instead appoints them from the ranks of senior NCOs. W-1 was reintroduced briefly in the early 1990s, when the Navy instituted a technical nurse program, that recruited nurse WOs directly out of college, but it was decided after a couple of years, to commission them as ensigns, instead. The grade still exists, but has not been used since then.

The first W-5 warrant officers were commissioned in the the Navy in 2004, some years after the Army and Marine Corps. This was primarily because the Navy managed its warrant officers differently, and they did not have consensus on the need for the W-5 rank until much later.

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Unread postby I.Q. » Tue Dec 06, 2005 10:17 pm

Ok, now I know "almost" everything about WO ;-)

Thanks.
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Unread postby dcfowler1 » Fri Dec 16, 2005 8:11 am

For information:

Department of the Army Pamphlet 600-3, Commissioned Officer Professional Development and Career Management, 14 October 2005, provides a new Warrant Officer Definition and Warrant Officer Definitions for each Warrant Officer Rank. This Pamphlet includes the career development of Warrant Officers, thus superseding Department of the Army Pamphlet 600-11. The new definitions are as follows:


3–5. Warrant officer definitions


The Army WO is a self–aware and adaptive technical expert, combat leader, trainer, and advisor. Through progressive levels of expertise in assignments, training, and education, the WO administers, manages, maintains, operates, and integrates Army systems and equipment across the full spectrum of Army operations. Warrant Officers are innovative integrators of emerging technologies, dynamic teachers, confident warfighters, and developers of specialized teams of soldiers. They support a wide range of Army missions throughout their career. Warrant officers in the Army are accessed with specific levels of technical ability. They refine their technical expertise and develop their leadership and management skills through tiered progressive assignment and education. The following are specific characteristics and responsibilities of the separate, successive WO grades.


a. Warrant officer one. An officer appointed by warrant with the requisite authority pursuant to assignment level and position given by the Secretary of the Army. WO1s are basic level, technically and tactically focused officers who perform the primary duties of technical leader, trainer, operator, manager, maintainer, sustainer, and advisor. They also perform any other branch-related duties assigned to them. They also provide direction, guidance, resources, assistance, and supervision necessary for subordinates to perform their duties. WO1s have specific responsibility for accomplishing the missions and tasks assigned to them and, if assigned as a commander, the collective or organizational responsibility for how well their command performs its mission. WO1s primarily support levels of operations from team or detachment through battalion, requiring interaction with all soldier cohorts and primary staff. They provide leader development, mentorship, and counsel to enlisted soldiers and NCOs.


b. Chief warrant officer two. CW2s are commissioned officers with the requisite authority pursuant to assignment level and position as given by the President of the U.S.. CW2s are intermediate level technical and tactical experts who perform the primary duties of technical leader, trainer, operator, manager, maintainer, sustainer, and advisor. They also perform any other branch-related duties assigned to them. They provide direction, guidance, resources, assistance, and supervision necessary for subordinates to perform their duties. They have specific responsibility for accomplishing the missions and tasks assigned to them and, if assigned as a commander, the collective or organizational responsibility for how well their command performs its mission. CW2s primarily support levels of operations from team or detachment through battalion, requiring interaction with all soldier cohorts and primary staff. They provide leader development, mentorship, advice, and counsel to NCOs, other WOs and company-grade branch officers.

c. Chief warrant officer three. CW3s are commissioned officers with the requisite authority pursuant to assignment level and position as given by the President of the U.S.. CW3s are advanced-level technical and tactical experts who perform the primary duties of technical leader, trainer, operator, manager, maintainer, sustainer, integrator, and advisor. They also perform any other branch-related duties assigned to them. They provide direction, guidance, resources, assistance, and supervision necessary for subordinates to perform their duties. CW3s have specific responsibility for accomplishing the missions and tasks assigned to them and, if assigned as a commander, the collective or organizational responsibility for how well their command performs its mission. CW3s primarily support levels of operations from team or detachment through brigade, requiring interaction with all soldier cohorts and primary staff. They provide leader development, mentorship, advice, and counsel to NCOs, other WOs and branch officers. CW3s advise commanders on WO issues.


d. Chief warrant officer four. CW4s are commissioned officers with the requisite authority pursuant to assignment level and position as given by the President of the U.S.. CW4s are senior-level technical and tactical experts who perform the primary duties of technical leader, manager, maintainer, sustainer, integrator and advisor. They also perform any other branch-related duties assigned to them. They provide direction, guidance, resources, assistance, and supervision necessary for subordinates to perform their duties. CW4s have specific responsibility for accomplishing the missions and tasks assigned to them and, if assigned as a commander, the collective or organizational responsibility for how well their command performs its mission. They primarily support battalion, brigade, division, corps, and echelons above corps operations. They must interact with NCOs, other officers, primary staff, and special staff. CW4s primarily provide leader development, mentorship, advice, and counsel to NCOs, other WOs and branch officers. They have special mentorship responsibilities for other WOs and provide essential advice to commanders on WO issues.


e. Chief warrant officer five. CW5s are commissioned officers with the requisite authority pursuant to assignment level and position as given by the President of the U.S.. CW5s are master-level technical and tactical experts who perform the primary duties of technical leader, manager, integrator, advisor, or any other particular duty prescribed by branch. They provide direction, guidance, resources, assistance, and supervision necessary for subordinates to perform their duties. CW5s have specific responsibility for accomplishing the missions and tasks assigned to them. CW5s primarily support brigade, division, corps, echelons above corps, and major command operations. They must interact with NCOs, other officers, primary staff and special staff. They provide leader development, mentorship, advice, and counsel to WOs and branch officers. CW5s have special WO leadership and representation responsibilities within their respective commands. They provide essential advice to commanders on WO issues."



(Para. 3-5, Department of the Army Pamphlet 600-3, 14 October 2005)
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Unread postby LONDON » Tue May 02, 2006 9:45 pm

dcfowler1 wrote:
Warrant officers in grade W-1 receive warrants from their respective service secretaries, but there are moves afoot to commission them as well.

Dave


Dave

Do you know what the timescale is for commissioning WO1s? The last I heard was that it was going to happen in 2007.
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Unread postby mbbwp » Fri Feb 29, 2008 4:05 pm

In the British Forces, woe betide any NCO/ enlisted man or Officer who does not call a WO "Sir". Officers may have the rank, but, WOs rule the roost. However, if a WO turns round to an Officer and says soemthing along the lines of, "Sir, you may call me Sergeant Major", then that's fine and the Officer may call the WO Sgt Maj.

I will always remember one of my old Master Aircrews (a Warrant Officer in the RAF who does jobs such as being a loadmaster) saying to a Wing Commander: "Sir, I call you Sir because I have you. You call me Sir because I've earnt the rank".
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Unread postby Necrothesp » Mon Mar 03, 2008 10:18 am

mbbwp wrote:In the British Forces, woe betide any NCO/ enlisted man or Officer who does not call a WO "Sir". Officers may have the rank, but, WOs rule the roost. However, if a WO turns round to an Officer and says soemthing along the lines of, "Sir, you may call me Sergeant Major", then that's fine and the Officer may call the WO Sgt Maj.

I will always remember one of my old Master Aircrews (a Warrant Officer in the RAF who does jobs such as being a loadmaster) saying to a Wing Commander: "Sir, I call you Sir because I have you. You call me Sir because I've earnt the rank".

Sorry, but no commissioned officer would call a WO "Sir". It would be a huge breach of etiquette. Officer cadets do call WOs "Sir" and are called "Sir" in return. Commissioned officers, however, outrank WOs, period, and address them either by their appointment or as "Mr (whatever)". I think you're misremembering. That quote sounds like something that a WO would say to a cadet at Sandhurst or Cranwell (the famous one being "You call me Sir and I call you Sir. The difference is, you mean it").

Many army WO2s actually prefer to be addressed by their appointment (e.g. sergeant major) by everyone, including other ranks. In the TA I had a regular QMSI who insisted on being called "Q" (the usual abbreviation for a QMS) and hated being addressed as "Sir" (the classic NCO's "I work for my living" was his common response). Note that this does not hold true for WO1s!!
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Unread postby Livgardist » Mon Mar 03, 2008 12:12 pm

In the ever diminishing Swedish Armed forces HQ has recently chosen to re-install professional Senior noncommisioned officers.

In 1986 the last professional NCO's were promoted to officers and the ranks of Sergeant (OR7) and Fanjunkare (OR8) were only to be used for conscript personell.

Now an aspiring officers candidate can chose to start his military college training either to become a tactical/operative officer or a specialist officer. Specialist officers start at OR7 and can be promoted OR8, if the older rank of Förvaltare (OR9) will be reintroduced nobody seems to know right now.

Before 1986 when Sweden used to have proffessional NCO's I would say that a Sergeant (OR7) could be compared to a British Staff Sergeant, Fanjunkare (OR8) to a British WO2 and a Förvaltare (OR9) above that, but not as almighty as a WO1.

The new specialist officers will be more technical oriented towards a specific task and probably easier to compare to the American Warrant Officers. They belong to the same "class" as ordinary officers and will work alongside them on the same terms.

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Unread postby mbbwp » Mon Mar 03, 2008 12:50 pm

Sorry, but no commissioned officer would call a WO "Sir". It would be a huge breach of etiquette

I've seen commissioned officers call WOs "Sir" on many occasions. It is not a breach of etiquette - it actually says in my JSP that a commissioned Officer should address a WO as "Sir" (That's JSP 535 [the one that's for CFAVs as well as thoe regular and reserve forces who help with the ACF etc]) as well as various other pamphlets that are used in the regular forces and reserves.

Officer cadets are another matter, and no, I'm not mis-remembering the quote
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Unread postby Necrothesp » Mon Mar 03, 2008 2:27 pm

mbbwp wrote:Sorry, but no commissioned officer would call a WO "Sir". It would be a huge breach of etiquette

I've seen commissioned officers call WOs "Sir" on many occasions. It is not a breach of etiquette - it actually says in my JSP that a commissioned Officer should address a WO as "Sir" (That's JSP 535 [the one that's for CFAVs as well as thoe regular and reserve forces who help with the ACF etc]) as well as various other pamphlets that are used in the regular forces and reserves.

Officer cadets are another matter, and no, I'm not mis-remembering the quote

No point getting into an argument. But I would point out that JSP 535 deals with Cadet Training Safety Precautions and not terms of address and doesn't even mention warrant officers.

http://www.sccheadquarters.com/Files/Re ... jsp535.pdf
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Unread postby Whiskey-Zulu » Tue Mar 04, 2008 6:18 pm

The 2004 Edition of JSP 535 should be discarded completely. The 2006 edition is the one in use now, is technically a classified document, and is different in many ways to the 2004 Edition.
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Unread postby Necrothesp » Tue Mar 04, 2008 6:22 pm

Wpeile wrote:The 2004 Edition of JSP 535 should be discarded completely. The 2006 edition is the one in use now, is technically a classified document, and is different in many ways to the 2004 Edition.

I'm assuming it still deals with safety though. Every MOD-related website I've seen says it does.
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Unread postby Whiskey-Zulu » Tue Mar 04, 2008 6:28 pm

It is mostly safety, yes, but there are some amendments coming soon regarding various other bits like dress and compliemts according to people at 9CTT.
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Unread postby Necrothesp » Wed Mar 05, 2008 11:13 am

From the RAF's own website:

"Warrant Officers are addressed as "Mister" (or "Mrs", "Ms" or "Miss" for female Warrant Officers) by commissioned officers (and as "Sir" or "Ma'am" by everyone else)."

http://www.raf.mod.uk/links/faqs.cfm

As I said, no commissioned officer would properly address a WO as "Sir", since that implies that the addressee is senior to the addressor, and all commissioned officers outrank all warrant officers, no matter what their experience. Any officer who does it has made a mistake. Officer cadets are in an odd position, since they are officers but are not yet commissioned officers, hence the mutual use of "Sir" to WOs. The status of officer cadets vis-a-vis WOs has never been satisfactorily established in any of the services.
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Swedish Warrant Officers

Unread postby Luke » Wed Mar 05, 2008 1:17 pm

Before 1972, we had a class of warrant officers (underofficerare) in the Swedish Army that resembled US Warrant Officers, but even more Indian Army Junior Commissioned Officers. The same corps existed in the Air Force and Navy, but I know less about them.

Sergeant = Warrant Officer (outranked all enlisted) 2/C OF A PLATOON . In 1972 holders of this rank became 2LT.

Fanjunkare = Chief Warrant Officer (rank above 2LT but under 1LT) PLATOON COMMANDER. In 1972 junior holders of this rank became 1LT; while seniors became CPT.
Förvaltare = Master Chief Warrant Officer (rank above 1LT but under CPT) CHIEF INSTRUCTORS. In 1972 holders of this rank became CPT.

This corps of warrant officers had developed out of the old SNCO Corps, and had gradually recieived higher rank and more qualified tasks. They had several similarities with the Danish Officianter but unlike them they never changed rank titles and traditions, and their rank insignia was based on the old traditional system.

Underbefäl, that previously had been JNCO, received two additional ranks and gradually took over the traditional underofficer tasks, so after 1960 they where the equivalent of a NCO Corps.

Rustmästare = Master Sergeant FIRST SERGEANTS. Renamed Fanjunkare in 1972, with Fanjunkare's rank insignia, but the same rank as before, i.e. below 2LT.

Överfurir = Staff Sergeants PLATOON SERGEANTS. Most became Fanjunkare in 1972. Junior Överfurirer became Sergeant.

Furir = Sergeant PLATOON SERGEANT. Became Överfurir in 1972.

Korpral = Corporal SQUAD LEADER (conscripts). Became Furir in 1972.

Vice korpral = Lance Corporal ASST SQUAD LEADER (conscript). Became Korpral in 1972.

The Corps changes names in 1972. Underbefäl became Platoon Officers, Underofficer became Company Officers, and Officerare became Regimental Officers. All three corps retained their own messes.

The commissioned officers also got upgraded in 1972. 2LT to 1LT, 1LT to CPT, and CPT to MAJ.

Then in 1983 a unitary officer corps was created, that moved all three corps in to one officer corps. The Fanjunkare becoming 1LT and the Sergeanter 2LT. And now we seem to be moving back to a two-tier system. The Department of Defense has order the Defence Forces to re-establish a professional NCO corps. This follows the re-establishmet of a Finnish professional NCO corps.
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WO Sir

Unread postby 60bill » Fri Mar 07, 2008 2:16 pm

Never known any WO addressed as sir by commissioned officer.
In 18th century England, one would address each other as sir to show you regarded each other as gentlemen, but during that same period an officer would never class a ranker as a gentleman.
RSM’s would be addressed as Mr, not sir by junior officers.
Junior officers would only address an RSM as sir if they had suicidal tendencies.
Fear is the best weapon
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Unread postby Whiskey-Zulu » Sun Mar 09, 2008 7:03 pm

Right, resgrading what a WO is reffered to by personnel:

Other SNCOS and ORs: "Sir".
Junior Officers, any of: "RSM", "Mr <insert>", "Regimental Sergeant Major", "Sergeant Major" or "Sir". This all depends on the customs of the unit.

This info was retrieved from: Customs of Service, A Guide for Officers and Adult Instructors, 2005 Edtn.

However, the 2007 Edtn does not mention anything about Junior Officers referring to WOs as "Sir", thus it can be assumed that a Junior Officer will not refer to a WO as "Sir".
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Unread postby Necrothesp » Mon Mar 10, 2008 11:04 am

Wpeile wrote:Right, resgrading what a WO is reffered to by personnel:

Other SNCOS and ORs: "Sir".
Junior Officers, any of: "RSM", "Mr <insert>", "Regimental Sergeant Major", "Sergeant Major" or "Sir". This all depends on the customs of the unit.

Note that this applies to WO1s. WO2s are usually addressed by their appointment by officers and other WOs, and sometimes also by ORs (although this usually depends upon personal preference).
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Unread postby Whiskey-Zulu » Mon Mar 10, 2008 11:38 am

James wrote:
Wpeile wrote:Right, resgrading what a WO is reffered to by personnel:

Other SNCOS and ORs: "Sir".
Junior Officers, any of: "RSM", "Mr <insert>", "Regimental Sergeant Major", "Sergeant Major" or "Sir". This all depends on the customs of the unit.

Note that this applies to WO1s. WO2s are usually addressed by their appointment by officers and other WOs, and sometimes also by ORs (although this usually depends upon personal preference).


Yes, thank you for mentiong that, I had a brain fart when I wrote the last post!
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