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AMERICA - MILITARY BRANCH & RANK INSIGNIA

Union Generic Uniform

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Union Generic Uniform

Unread postby Luke2 » Tue Feb 11, 2014 5:43 pm

Dmitry: As usual a great job; as usual I have a few comments:

(1) There were no Company Quartermaster Sergeants in the Infantry, only in the Cavalry and the Artillery.

Three blue chevrons and an arc was born by Drum Majors of Infantry.

(2) First Sergeants and above also wore a red sash and belt (with a short NCO sword).

(3) There should also be a Regimental Commissary Sergeant. Insignia was three chevrons and three bars.

Sources: Ph. Haythorthwaite, Uniforms of the Civil War (1990); Paul Stevenson, The American Civil War (1990).
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Re: Union Generic Uniform

Unread postby Erskine Calderon » Tue Feb 11, 2014 6:55 pm

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Re: Union Generic Uniform

Unread postby Dorward_Bis » Tue Feb 11, 2014 7:12 pm

Thanks, Luke 2 - I've sent a message to Pavel asking him to remove a Company QM Sgt. My mistake.
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Re: Union Generic Uniform

Unread postby Dorward_Bis » Tue Feb 11, 2014 7:57 pm

Erskine Calderon wrote:Aso, wrong flag for the Union.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:US_flag_34_stars.svg


Well, as soon as there were 2 confronting sides in this conflict and each had own flag, I suppose it would be reasonable to use a combined flag as an indicator of this period to reflect everything we need:
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Re: Union Generic Uniform

Unread postby SFMRAS » Tue Feb 11, 2014 8:00 pm

I don't know if I should start a new thread, but I figure I should point out an error on the Confederate Generic Uniform; Second Lieutenants and First Lieutenants wore the same Austrian knot on their sleeves. Only their collar insignias were different.
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Re: Union Generic Uniform

Unread postby Erskine Calderon » Tue Feb 11, 2014 8:02 pm

Dorward_Bis wrote:
Erskine Calderon wrote:Aso, wrong flag for the Union.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:US_flag_34_stars.svg


Well, as soon as there were 2 confronting sides in this conflict and each had own flag, I suppose it would be reasonable to use a combined flag as an indicator of this period to reflect everything we need:
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Nope: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flags_of_t ... _Banner.29
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Re: Union Generic Uniform

Unread postby Dorward_Bis » Tue Feb 11, 2014 8:09 pm

What do you mean - nope, colleague? I know the difference between Yankees and Dixies flags)

This combined flag is just a symbol which allows us to use the same theme "United States of America 1861-1865 (Civil War)" for both USA and CSA uniforms and insignias. Otherwise, we should make 2 separate themes as we did for Russian Civil War - we had to make a separate theme "White Movement". Just a symbol, nothing more.
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Re: Union Generic Uniform

Unread postby Erskine Calderon » Tue Feb 11, 2014 8:12 pm

Dorward_Bis wrote:What do you mean - nope, colleague? I know the difference between Yankees and Dixies flags)

This combined flag is just a symbol which allows us to use the same theme "United States of America 1861-1865 (Civil War)" for both USA and CSA uniforms and insignias. Otherwise, we should make 2 separate themes as we did for Russian Civil War - we had to make a separate theme "White Movement". Just a symbol, nothing more.


The flag in use by this site for this topic is the flag that I posted a link to above. It is not a combined flag.
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Re: Union Generic Uniform

Unread postby Dorward_Bis » Tue Feb 11, 2014 8:31 pm

Erskine Calderon wrote:
Dorward_Bis wrote:What do you mean - nope, colleague? I know the difference between Yankees and Dixies flags)

This combined flag is just a symbol which allows us to use the same theme "United States of America 1861-1865 (Civil War)" for both USA and CSA uniforms and insignias. Otherwise, we should make 2 separate themes as we did for Russian Civil War - we had to make a separate theme "White Movement". Just a symbol, nothing more.


The flag in use by this site for this topic is the flag that I posted a link to above. It is not a combined flag.


But this is a flag of CSA. What about a USA flag?
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Re: Union Generic Uniform

Unread postby Erskine Calderon » Tue Feb 11, 2014 8:39 pm

Dorward_Bis wrote:
Erskine Calderon wrote:
Dorward_Bis wrote:What do you mean - nope, colleague? I know the difference between Yankees and Dixies flags)

This combined flag is just a symbol which allows us to use the same theme "United States of America 1861-1865 (Civil War)" for both USA and CSA uniforms and insignias. Otherwise, we should make 2 separate themes as we did for Russian Civil War - we had to make a separate theme "White Movement". Just a symbol, nothing more.


The flag in use by this site for this topic is the flag that I posted a link to above. It is not a combined flag.


But this is a flag of CSA. What about a USA flag?


See my first post.
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Confederate Generic Uniform

Unread postby Luke2 » Tue Feb 11, 2014 9:03 pm

(1) CSA First Sergeants and above of Infantry were supposed to wear a light blue sash (as per branch color). Source: Ph. Haythorthwaite, Uniforms of the Civil War (1990

(2) Pants were supposed to be light blue except for generals and staff departments (the same in the USA). See:https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:War_of_the_Rebellion_Atlas_Plate_172.jpg

I also must correct my first post: "(3) There should also be a Regimental Commissary Sergeant. Insignia was three chevrons and three bars." Wrong insignia! I cannot find the right insignia.
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Re: Confederate Generic Uniform

Unread postby Erskine Calderon » Tue Feb 11, 2014 9:21 pm

Luke2 wrote:(1) CSA First Sergeants and above of Infantry were supposed to wear a light blue sash (as per branch color). Source: Ph. Haythorthwaite, Uniforms of the Civil War (1990

(2) Pants were supposed to be light blue except for generals and staff departments (the same in the USA). See:https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:War_of_the_Rebellion_Atlas_Plate_172.jpg

I also must correct my first post: "(3) There should also be a Regimental Commissary Sergeant. Insignia was three chevrons and three bars." Wrong insignia! I cannot find the right insignia.


Perhaps: http://www.santafetrailresearch.com/for ... /fig76.jpg
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Confederate State Armies

Unread postby Luke2 » Wed Feb 12, 2014 10:09 pm

Tennessee Uniform.jpg
Tennessee
Mississippi Uniform Regulations 1861.jpg
Mississippi Uniform Regulations 1861


Source: https://sites.google.com/site/northcaro ... egulations
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Re: Union Generic Uniform

Unread postby Erskine Calderon » Wed Feb 12, 2014 11:47 pm

I apologize, Dorward. My work server was not showing me your flag image. That would be a good one to use.
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Re: Union Generic Uniform

Unread postby gghbisa » Thu Feb 13, 2014 6:15 am

Union Infantry Regiments at the time had two different tables of organization

The ten regiments of the regular army consisted of:

1 Colonel
1 Lieutenant Colonel
2 Majors
10 Captains
10 First Lieutenants
10 Second Lieutenants
1 Sergeant Major
1 Quartermaster Sergeant
2 Principal or Chief Musicians
10 First Sergeants
30 Sergeants
40 Corporals
40 Musicians
420 Privates

New regiments raised for the war consisted of:

1 Colonel
1 Lieutenant Colonel
3 Majors
24 Captains
24 First Lieutenants
24 Second Lieutenants
1 Drum Major
2 Principal or Chief Musicians
3 Battalion Sergeants Major
3 Battalion Quartermaster Sergeants
3 Battalion Commissary Sergeants
3 Battalion Hospital Stewards
24 First Sergeants
96 Sergeants
192 Corporals
72 Musicians
1698 Privates

As for the uniforms, the horn on the caps was made of brass not silver. Technically the horns were not to be worn on the enlisted forage caps, only on the dress hats, however the dress hats were rarely worn and the horns were commonly seen on the caps. The forage caps with the embroidered horn insignia were worn by all ranks of officer. The dress hats without the ostrich feathers were commonly worn by officers as well, however the hat cords were a mixture of gold and black. Gold cords were only worn by generals.

The fatigue sack coats had a rolling collar, the standing collar with the v opening was on the dress frock coat.

The army had just begun to change from light blue to dark blue trousers (or trowsers as they were then known) for all ranks when the war broke out. The 1861 uniform regulations call for dark blue for all, but in reality light blue was worn by everyone but generals, staff officers and probably enlisted men in the ordnance department. Stripes were dark blue for infantry and were 1/2 inch wide for Corporals and 1 1/12 inches wide fro Sergeants and above. Officers wore a 1/8 inch dark blue welt and generals wore plain dark blue trousers without a stripe.

Sashes were buff silk for generals, crimson silk for other officers (except medical and pay officers) and red worsted for First Sergeants and above.
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Re: Union Generic Uniform

Unread postby Dorward_Bis » Thu Feb 13, 2014 7:40 am

Thanks a lot for a valuable and accurate information, as usual, Steven) Hope to see your book in Russian ever))

Erskine Calderon wrote:I apologize, Dorward. My work server was not showing me your flag image. That would be a good one to use.


It's ok. colleague - just a technical issue))

Luke2,thanks for the Tennessee rank insignia - very interesting and unusual.
Concerning Mississippi Army - I made them some time ago according to the description I found (http://www.uniforminsignia.org/?option= ... esult=3064)
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Re: Union Generic Uniform

Unread postby Dorward_Bis » Thu Feb 13, 2014 7:43 am

Btw, Steven - concerning the war-time infantry regiment structure: as I understand, is consisted of 3 battalions. But how many companies were in a battalion (8?), and how many platoons in a company?
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New Regiments

Unread postby Luke2 » Thu Feb 13, 2014 4:32 pm

The new regiments mentioned by gghbisa were the new regular regiments. During the ACW the Regular Army (US Army) only reached 19 regiments of infantry, 6 of cavalry and 5 of artillery. They were named like: 1st US Infantry, 5th US Arillery.

The majority of the 2.8 million men that served in the Union army belonged to the Volunteer army (US Volunteers), raised by the several states either voluntarily or through a draft. They had names of this type: 1st Michigan Infantry, 5th Illinois Cavalry.

A volunteer infantry regiment had the following table of organization:

Regimental HQ
1 colonel
1 lieutenant colonel
1 major
1 adjutant (regimental subaltern)
1 surgeon
1 assistant surgeon
1 hospital steward (nco)
1 quartermaster (regimental subaltern)
1 quartermaster sergeant
1 commissary sergeant
1 sergeant major

Company
10 companies, each:
1 captain
1 first lieutenant
1 second lieutenant
4 sergeants (1 of which orderly or first)
8 corporals
82 privates

Each Company was split into 4 platoons, and each platoon into 2 sections.

Source: Paul Stevenson, The American Civil War (1990).
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Re: Union Generic Uniform

Unread postby Dorward_Bis » Thu Feb 13, 2014 5:15 pm

Thanks Luke - very interesting!

So, concerning a Company:

As I understand, it consisted of 4 platoons and a Company management:

Company management: 1 Captain, 1 First Lt, 1 Second LT (3 in total)
Platoon: 1 Sergeant, 2 Corporals, 21/20) privates (24/23) in total)
Section: 1 Corporal, 10/11) Privates.

Means, unlike modern Armies, the platoon leader position was occupied by NCO?
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Re: Union Generic Uniform

Unread postby gghbisa » Thu Feb 13, 2014 8:34 pm

Old regiments had ten companies and new regiments two or three battalions with eight companies each.

The company was the smallest official formation. That doesn't mean that platoons, sections and squads were not used, but the laws organizing the army and the army's tables of organization only go down to the company level.

From what I have been able to find, when a company was split into platoons the Captains commanded one and the First Lieutenant the other.
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Re: Union Generic Uniform

Unread postby Luke2 » Thu Feb 13, 2014 9:24 pm

c1.jpg
Line formation
In reality platoons and sections were of no tactical importance. Regiments, brigades and divisions operated in closed formations. The only tactical subdivisions, for instance a skirmish line or the reserve, were made up of 1-2 companies.
Hightattack.gif

http://www.mvep.org/skirmishold.htm

Furthermore, due to attrition, the number of men in a regiment steadily diminished over the enlistment period. Although volunteer regiments to some extent were resupplied with men over time, it was more common to organize new regiments, when new contingents enlisted or voluntered. The average Union regiment strenght in 1865 was 500 men. The average Confederate regiment strenght the same year was 150.

parade-6-me.gif
A Company of the 6th Maine after the Battle of Fredericksburg 1862
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Kentucky State Guard

Unread postby Luke2 » Sun Sep 27, 2015 8:27 pm

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Re: Union Generic Uniform

Unread postby Dorward_Bis » Mon Sep 28, 2015 6:20 am

A very interesting information, Luke!
I suppose this period of time keeps a lot of uniformological secrets still))
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Re: Kentucky State Guard

Unread postby marcpasquin » Mon Sep 28, 2015 7:07 am

Luke2 wrote:Kentucky state guard


Is the collar insignia a corn cob ? I'm not being a smart-ass, it's what it looks like to me.
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Re: Union Generic Uniform

Unread postby Torg003 » Mon Sep 28, 2015 5:01 pm

That was my first impression as well.
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Re: Union Generic Uniform

Unread postby Luke2 » Tue Sep 29, 2015 6:00 pm

It sure looks like a maize cob. But according to this:

https://books.google.se/books?id=PyFDp- ... nd&f=false

Its supposed to be an "extended hand" (page 17), whatever that is.
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Re: Union Generic Uniform

Unread postby 60bill » Tue Sep 29, 2015 6:34 pm

Regarding the flags, from the 1907 booklet The Flags of the Confederate States of America.
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Re: Union Generic Uniform

Unread postby Dorward_Bis » Tue Sep 29, 2015 9:55 pm

Luke2 wrote:It sure looks like a maize cob. But according to this:

https://books.google.se/books?id=PyFDp- ... nd&f=false

Its supposed to be an "extended hand" (page 17), whatever that is.


Luke, I suppose this sign should be observed as an "extended hand"^
Image, and this corresponds to the pictures of collar insignias for general officers (the shield between two stars).
From another hand, this "corn cob" resembles a palm with extended fingers (though I'm affraid to notice this the one should possess a vivid imagination))
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