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HYPOTHETICAL RANKS

Hypothetical Marshal of the Commonwealth insignia

Dealing primarily with contemporary and historical Earth nations. (Science-fiction oriented rank systems, such as Star Trek, Starship Troopers, etc.), should be placed in FICTIVE Rank Insignia.

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Re: Hypothetical Marshal of the Commonwealth insignia

Unread postby ijnfleetadmiral » Wed Sep 11, 2013 11:33 pm

Nice work!
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Re: Hypothetical Marshal of the Commonwealth insignia

Unread postby Medic_in_Uniform » Thu Sep 12, 2013 12:59 pm

Thank you! smilies-15


Now...

Fall in, the Officers!

Lancer Regts Dress Officer 1.jpg


RSM of the 21st, Captain of the 16th, Lt. Colonel of the 12th and Colonel of the 17th. Note the (real!) tradition of the RSM wearing Field Officer-pattern peak embroidery!

Here also are the updated (and slightly standardised) Officer/WO and Other Ranks versions of the cap and collar badges for all six regiments along with their regimental buttons:

Lancer Regts Badges.jpg



Finally...

The crazy, gaudy monstrosity (and military tailor's nightmare...!) that would be the Lancer-pattern General Officer uniform you guys were discussing.

smilies-24 smilies-15

Just for the sake of completeness, I've done both versions of the colour scheme. The red-on-dark blue tunic looks good, but to my mind at least, the red tunic would at least seem more consistent with other British General Staff dress uniforms of the period. Anyway, here they are:

Lancer Regts Dress General.jpg



It's certainly fun -- but does look a little like someone's parody of the uniform for a self-proclaimed dictator somewhere in the world (!). I guess the Victorian and Edwardian British might have been just sufficiently over-the-top to have come up with something like this.

Maybe.

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Re: Hypothetical Marshal of the Commonwealth insignia

Unread postby sketor7558 » Thu Sep 12, 2013 8:09 pm

You have outdone yourself Medic.Great job.
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Re: Hypothetical Marshal of the Commonwealth insignia

Unread postby Medic_in_Uniform » Fri Sep 13, 2013 1:15 am

Aw, shucks -- thank you! smilies-02

Actually, I think I may need to revise the Lancer designs and do a bit more work on the Generals' uniforms:

there clearly isn't anything like enough "bling" on them yet...!
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Re: Hypothetical Marshal of the Commonwealth insignia

Unread postby Cobra Kebab » Fri Sep 13, 2013 12:55 pm

Thank you very much, these look excellent. They really match my idea of a Colonel-General of Lancers as a ceremonial head of the lancer regiments.

What's next? Household cavalry, Dragoon guards, Hussars or the Army Service Corps? Maybe a Colonel-General of Rifles?
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Re: Hypothetical Marshal of the Commonwealth insignia

Unread postby Medic_in_Uniform » Fri Sep 13, 2013 2:23 pm

Hi! No problem -- they were kinda fun to do. smilies-15

For the Lancers, I'd still like to do a few more officer variants for the regiments that I haven't yet covered. actually, given a bit more time I'd really like to do a full set of all ranks for each regiment but that would take a while. Perhaps I'll get around to it eventually.


Not sure what's next. I'm pretty busy with real work at the moment so I only get to work on this stuff in short bursts. Here are some of my thoughts for other potential projects:

Regarding the Household Division, I guess I always thought that the Foot Guards and the Horse Guards would always be left unchanged so I didn't see much point in doing those as we all know what they look like. Maybe some day I'll do them anyway, just for completeness!

I've been working on a few other bits and pieces that I haven't shown before; things like Mess Dress and, for senior ranks, full formal evening wear (i.e. white tie with tailcoats) for the RN, RM, RAF and some of the Army regiments and General Staff. I'll try to find the time to finish those and export them for posting some time soon.

I would like to have a go at some of the Scottish regiments and some other Cavalry regiments (of various types). The Royal Scots Greys (still extant as a separate regiment in 1920) would definitely be one option. I'd love to do some of the Highland and Lowland infantry regiments too -- but getting the detailing right on the tartans would just be an enormous pain in the... (!).

Current Royal Scots Dragoon Guards full dress:
IMG_0598.JPG


Other, non-military things would be period-appropriate British Fire Brigade uniforms to go alongside the Police uniforms that Sketor suggested and possibly even Royal Mail or Railway uniforms of the period, although I'm really not interested in those. I also thought about the British formal Diplomatic and Court dress of the period too. Again, lots of fiddly details on these which means they would be both fun and frustrating to draw but will take an enormous amount of time to get right -- so not likely to happen any time soon...!

I'm always open to suggestions for other projects related to this alternative timeline, c.1920, but that doesn't guarantee I'll definitely follow-up on all the ideas proposed. My general approach is to look for units such as Regiments and Corps that were in existence at that time -- or units for which creation / amalgamation / development would have been plausible as part of a defence re-configuration around that time or a little later (say, 1920-1935). What I don't want to do, however, is stray into the realms of late Steampunk; historically plausible is what I'm really looking for.

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Re: Hypothetical Marshal of the Commonwealth insignia

Unread postby Clive19 » Fri Sep 13, 2013 11:53 pm

Stunning work, simply stunning.

I'm not sure you could embellish the lancer's general uniform any more, they're pretty topped up.
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Re: Hypothetical Marshal of the Commonwealth insignia

Unread postby Medic_in_Uniform » Sat Sep 14, 2013 1:10 am

Clive19 wrote:I'm not sure you could embellish the lancer's general uniform any more, they're pretty topped up.


Indeed...!

(I really was joking -- it's already been pimped into absurdity! smilies-15 )
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Re: Hypothetical Marshal of the Commonwealth insignia

Unread postby Miklós Lovász » Sun Sep 15, 2013 3:57 pm

Medic_in_Uniform wrote:
Clive19 wrote:I'm not sure you could embellish the lancer's general uniform any more, they're pretty topped up.


Indeed...!

(I really was joking -- it's already been pimped into absurdity! smilies-15 )


Hmmm ... how about changing the hem piping to oakleaves and decorating their shoes as well? smilies-15
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Re: Hypothetical Marshal of the Commonwealth insignia

Unread postby Medic_in_Uniform » Tue Sep 17, 2013 2:28 pm

Tempting...
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Re: Hypothetical Marshal of the Commonwealth insignia

Unread postby Erskine Calderon » Tue Sep 17, 2013 3:00 pm

Medic_in_Uniform wrote:Tempting...


Embroider the pant cuffs in a similar fashion to the jackets.
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Re: Hypothetical Marshal of the Commonwealth insignia

Unread postby Clive19 » Sat Sep 21, 2013 1:22 am

I don't think that embellishment on the trousers and shoes wouldn't look right, aside from the trouser stripes.

Maybe, if the ORs and junior officers wear normal field boots, then the general officers could wear a similar style to the household cavalry i.e. taller and with those pointy bits (technical term)
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Re: Hypothetical Marshal of the Commonwealth insignia

Unread postby Medic_in_Uniform » Mon Sep 23, 2013 5:35 pm

He's joking! (I think...!) smilies-15



(Although if you lot insist on coming up with increasingly silly ideas for this concept then I might just have to do a version that incorporates all of this madness! smilies-25 )
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Re: Hypothetical Marshal of the Commonwealth insignia

Unread postby Erskine Calderon » Mon Sep 23, 2013 5:57 pm

Medic_in_Uniform wrote:He's joking! (I think...!) smilies-15



(Although if you lot insist on coming up with increasingly silly ideas for this concept then I might just have to do a version that incorporates all of this madness! smilies-25 )


We ARE talking about uniforms that are defacto armoured by embellishments. :)
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Re: Hypothetical Marshal of the Commonwealth insignia

Unread postby Medic_in_Uniform » Mon Sep 23, 2013 6:38 pm

Hmmmm.

"My gold bullion is as a shield of steel!" ...? (!)



Who needs kevlar?! smilies-16 smilies-15
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Re: Hypothetical Marshal of the Commonwealth insignia

Unread postby Erskine Calderon » Mon Sep 23, 2013 8:24 pm

Medic_in_Uniform wrote:Hmmmm.

"My gold bullion is as a shield of steel!" ...? (!)



Who needs kevlar?! smilies-16 smilies-15


Whenever you think that you have gone as far as you can with this, remember the North Korean generals.
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Re: Hypothetical Marshal of the Commonwealth insignia

Unread postby Miklós Lovász » Tue Sep 24, 2013 6:17 am

Medic_in_Uniform wrote:He's joking! (I think...!) smilies-15



(Although if you lot insist on coming up with increasingly silly ideas for this concept then I might just have to do a version that incorporates all of this madness! smilies-25 )


You think? smilies-28

Actually, it would be kind of neat ... shoes, no, scratch that, riding boots decorated with goald leaves, trousers with goald leaves instead of plain piping, plastron embroidered with gold leaves, hem and back too ... pleeeease, do it smilies-15
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Re: Hypothetical Marshal of the Commonwealth insignia

Unread postby Medic_in_Uniform » Fri Oct 11, 2013 8:28 am

Erskine Calderon wrote:Whenever you think that you have gone as far as you can with this, remember the North Korean generals.



Quite...! smilies-01

You thinking of this by any chance...? smilies-24 smilies-15

North-Korean-Generals.jpg
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Re: Hypothetical Marshal of the Commonwealth insignia

Unread postby Medic_in_Uniform » Fri Oct 11, 2013 11:03 am

I mentioned a while back that I was working on various Mess Dress and Ceremonial Evening Dress uniforms for all the services. These tend to be the equivalent of civilian Black Tie / Dinner Jacket / Tuxedo and full formal White Tie / full Evening Dress with tailcoats. They are not quite as highly embellished as full dress but do tend to follow something of the pattern of these uniforms. The Army versions evolved around the mid-1800s as alternatives to officers wearing full dress for less formal evening events.

The British tend to have two main types of mess dress; both are short, waist-length jackets but one is worn open over a shirt and bow-tie with a waistcoat/vest (and looks like the evening tailcoat, without the tails) whereas the other evolved from the short stable jackets worn by cavalry regiments and are somethimes still referred to as "cavalry-pattern" mess jackets (although they are also worn by many NON-cavalry regiments and corps). This pattern has a high collar jacket and is either worn over a high-closing waistcoat/vest with the jacket collar closed, or the waistcoat/vest itself also has a high collar and the jacket is worn open over this. The "cavalry"-type is often more highly embellished than the open type.

As with British army full dress, the mess dress uniforms tend to reflect the different traditions and customs of their corps and regiments; they are, therefore, usually made in traditional regimental colours and patterns and (usually) reflect the colours of their unit's full dress. It is usual, therefore, for line infantry regiments to wear scarlet jackets (open or cavalry-type) with regimental facing colours and dark blue trousers whereas support Corps tend to wear dark blue jackets and trousers with corps-specific facing colours. Cavalry mess dress (predictably!) is almost always the high-collared cavalry jackets with jackets waistcoats and and trousers in a variety of traditional regimental colours.

For the most part, these uniforms were originally worn by officers in the Officers' Mess for dinner and for evening social functions. Over time, they became the accepted military alternative to civilian formal evening dress. Over the years they also became accepted for wear by senior non-comissioned officers in the Warrant Officers' and Sergents' Mess. These tend to follow the general pattern of their officers' uniforms but are usually less decorated. In some units, officers and NCOs may wear different patterns of mess dress (ie one in cvalry-type and the other in open jackets with shirts and ties), but usually using the same main body colour and the same facing colour(s) for collars and cuffs, and so on. The wearing of rank markings on mess dress varies from unit to unit, according to traditional use. For some units, officers do not wear specific rank markings but their mess dress uniforms may still have differing degrees of embellishment between groups such as junior officers and field officers. In this hypothetical history, as with the other uniforms, Warrant Officers will wear what is essentially officer-pattern uniforms.

Please note that while I have maintained many similarities and traditional features from real historical uniforms of this type, some small changes have been made for these uniforms. Most are minor changes to the variations in the embellishments worn with increasing rank which keep the uniforms within the styles established for the rest of early period of this hypothetical history (for example, contemporary general officer mess dress jackets are actually scarlet with plain dark blue peaked cuffs and they wear plain scarlet trouser stripes). Some uniforms, however, are again confections of my own imagining.
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Without further ado, here are the uniforms...


1. Royal Navy

RN Mess Dress.jpg


Note the full ceremonial evening dress of a Vice-Admiral on the left with tailcoat, white tie, white waistcoat/vest and Full Dress-type gold-faced shoulder boards. This would normally be worn only by officers of the rank of Commander and above. Historically, it would have included full bullion-fringed dress epaulettes but as these have been discontinued for Full Dress, so the Evening Dress follows suit.

An Admiral's less formal Mess Undress would look much the same as that of the Captain next to him, apart from the sleeve lace and the Flag Officer buttons. Officers of the rank of Commander and above (i.e. those with oak leaves on the peaks of their caps) have gold side seam stripes on their trousers, like full dress.

Lt-Commander and below wear plain trousers but, exceptionally, may wear wear their gold-laced full dress trousers at very formal evening ceremonial events, when they would also wear white waistcoat/vest and white tie under their short mess jackets if more senior officers are wearing full tail coats, although gold shoulder boards are never worn on short mess jackets.

The Warrant Officers had traditonally messed separately from the officers in the Wardroom but, with the development of the Warrant ranks' career progression, there was an attempt to merge the two messes - or at least bring warrant officers "in from the cold." This initially had varying success but, over time, it would eventually become accepted practice.


2. Royal Marines

RM Mess Dress.jpg


Following the merging of the RM Light Infantry and the RM Artillery into the single Corps of Royal Marines, the full dress uniform was dark blue with scarlet facing (essentially based on the RMA uniform) but the mess dress was scarlet with dark blue facing (based on the RMLI) and essentially followed the standard Army pattern. Some minor differences: the cuffs are round cuffs, rather than peaked; officers up to and including Lt. Colonel do not wear epaulettes and rank is worn on the lapel of the shawl collar, above the Globe and Laurels. Senior officers of substantive Colonel wear bullion embroidered versions of the full Corps badge in place of the Globe and Laurels and they wear their rank on epaulettes with gold-lace edging. Other embellishments broadly follow Army pattern.

There is a full ceremonial evening tailcoat but this simply follows the Army pattern for Staff and General Officers, worn with RM buttons, as appropriate. For less formal "mess undress", the side caps in Corps colours became the preferred and traditional headwear. Substantive Colonels and above wear the same pattern side caps as equivalent Army senior officers with the Staff Officer or General Officer cap badges, as appropriate. The Corps side cap for officers and WO1 is all dark blue except for a scarlet crown. The sides have bullion piping for field officers.

As with the Royal Navy, officers attending formal ceremonial evening events without a tailcoat could opt (or indeed may be required) to wear short mess jackets with white wasitcoat/vest and white tie - in which case the peaked cap was mandatory.


3. Army

A. General Officers and General Staff Officers (substantive Colonels and Brigade Colonels)

General Staff Mess Dess.jpg


This is the traditional Brtish Army scarlet with dark blue collars and cuffs. The mess jacket has no front buttons (or button holes) and is worn open over the dark blue vest.

The full evening dress is usually worn by officers of the rank of substantive Colonel and above. Those not of General Officer rank wear plain scarlet trouser stipes and have a plain gold lace on the cuffs in place of the oak leaves, in much the same way as the full dress uniforms.

Note that the head wear for Mess Dress may be full dress peaked caps or coloured side caps in regimental/corps colours. In practice, it rapidly became established that coloured side-caps were the preferred option for all but the more formal events. For full ceremonial evening dress with tailcoat / white tie then head wear was always the full dress peaked cap (with white gloves and cloak!). As with the RN and RM, officers attending formal ceremonial evening events without a tailcoat could opt (or indeed may be required) to wear short mess jackets with white wasitcoat/vest and white tie - in which case the peaked cap was mandatory. Obviously, those with cavalry-pattern mess uniforms would simply wear those without change.

Note that the side caps for Generals and Staff Officers are dark blue with gold seam/edge piping and scarlet crowns. They are worn with general officer or staff officer bullion badges and buttons, as appropriate.


B. Regiments and Corps

Regiments Mess Dess.jpg


These are some of the units for which I've previously presented full dress and other service uniforms. From left to right:
Royal Artillery (field officer), two different line infantry regiments, Corps of Military Police (note the cavalry-pattern, descended from their origins as the mounted Provost Corps).

I haven't yet done the mess dress for the other units from previous posts like the various Lancer Regiments, the Royal Tank Regiment and the Rifle Regiments as these are all of the "cavalry" pattern and are somewhat more complex in their embellishments, so they'll take a while to complete...!


C. Royal Army Medical Corps

RAMC Mess Dess.jpg


The RAMC uses the basic staff pattern but, like other support Corps, reversed into dark blue jackets with facing colours for collar, cuffs and waistcoat/vest. For the RAMC this is "dull cherry." As with the full dress, medically qualified officers wear gauntlet-type cuffs and other officers and Warrant Officers wear the standard peaked cuffs. Substantive colonels and above wear Corps pattern jackets but do not wear corps badges and have epaulettes with gold lace edging. Embellishments with rank remain the same.

Formally, medical corps staff and general officers wear staff-pattern side caps but with dull cherry in place of scarlet for the crowns. Informally, most continue to wear RAMC side caps with staff or general officer badges.

A version of the full tail coat is authorised, for substantive Colonels and above, in dark blue with dull cherry lapels and cuffs (standard peaked type or medical officer gauntlet cuffs, as appropriate).


4. Royal Air Force

RAF Mess Dress.jpg


The youngest Service inherited various elements of tradition from its RNAS and RFC forebears. Like its other uniforms, mess dress and evening wear melds elements of Army and Navy. Mess jackets are worn with gold cuff lace like full dress. Epaulettes are not worn, except on tailcoats for Group Captain and above. Wing Commander and below do not wear gold laced trouers but do have silk grosgrain stripes in dark blue-gray to match the jacket lapels.

Side caps are again the usual headwear for less formal events. White tie and vest may be worn with short jackets and peaked full dress caps if so required.

Warrant Officers wear full officer pattern but with bullion badges on their cuffs in place of distinction lace.


5. Finally...

Back to the origins of this topic and here are the Marshals of the Empire and the Grand Admiral of the Empire in full ceremonial evening dress, appropriate for a Royal Reception or State Banquet. White tie, tail coats, stars and broad ribands of orders of knighthood, neck badges, miniature decorations, aguillettes -- the whole nine yards...!!
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Grand Admiral and Marshals of the Empire - Evening Dress.jpg
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Re: Hypothetical Marshal of the Commonwealth insignia

Unread postby knight2281 » Mon Aug 25, 2014 3:12 am

Would there be anyway that you might do some of the Household Division uniforms and rank insignia? I believe it would be great to see maybe some uniforms and insignia of Scottish Regiments please. I do enjoy what you have posted so far thank you.
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Re: Hypothetical Marshal of the Commonwealth insignia

Unread postby Medic_in_Uniform » Mon Aug 25, 2014 3:06 pm

Hi! Thanks for reviving and old thread...!! smilies-15

Yes, I might get around to the Household Division although it may not be sometime soon. I kind of imagined that the Footguards and the Household Cavalry uniforms would escape the standardisation/simplification because of their special ceremonial nature and would, therefore, be more-or-less unchanged, retaining their unique headwear too. I'd definitely like to draw them though, so watch this space!

I actually have quite a lot of updates that I've been working on since I last posted the evening dress pics (nearly a year ago!) but I largely do the drawings for fun and my own satisfaction. Exporting the pics and uploading them to the forum is time consuming and not as much fun so it often takes me a while but I'll get around to it eventually...!

I have some refinements to the Royal Navy, the Royal Marines and the Royal Artillery (mostly small-ish changes where I've spotted errors or thought of a slightly better way of doing things) I've also added the ceremonial mounted full dress of the Royal Horse Artillery (there you go -- the first of the Household troops!), service dress and field dress for the Lancers and the RA and a full set for the Royal Engineers. I've also started on a fictional line cavalry regiment to go with my fictional line infantry regiment. From the RAF, I started doing a period-appropriate version of what is the RAF Regiment in our time.

Scottish regiments sounds like a grand idea and I'll have a think about that. If you look above at the pic of the current Royal Scots Dragoon Guards full dress, I'd definitely like to have a bash at what would, in 1920, have still been the 2nd Dragoons (Royal Scots Greys) as well as some Highland and Lowland foot regiments.

If you think of any other ideas, let me know!
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Re: Hypothetical Marshal of the Commonwealth insignia

Unread postby JMRamos » Tue Aug 26, 2014 2:23 am

WELCOME BACK!!!
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Re: Hypothetical Marshal of the Commonwealth insignia

Unread postby Medic_in_Uniform » Tue Aug 26, 2014 7:46 pm

I don't think I was ever *that* far away...!
(At least not for too long, anyway!)
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Re: Hypothetical Marshal of the Commonwealth insignia

Unread postby knight2281 » Tue Sep 09, 2014 6:05 pm

I can't wait to see what you have in store for us.
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Re: Hypothetical Marshal of the Commonwealth insignia

Unread postby Erskine Calderon » Tue Sep 09, 2014 6:44 pm

No pressure. :)
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Re: Hypothetical Marshal of the Commonwealth insignia

Unread postby Medic_in_Uniform » Tue Sep 09, 2014 10:58 pm

Thanks, Erskine...! (!) smilies-15

Beyond the original concepts for the Marshal of the Empire rank markings (which were more of a rolling discussion) I've largely tried to avoid going back and tinkering with things I've finished and previously posted; I guess I just didn't want to get bogged down in multiple re-workings and re-postings of essentially the same things with only subtle changes. As I've mentioned, there are, however, a few things that have changed sufficiently to make posting a "new improved" version worthwhile and there is also some new stuff to go with these. The drawings are mostly done, I just need to find the time to export them and then upload them. I'll see if I can get some done over the next couple of days.

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If Apple can string out their new product launches (and, indeed, the updates to their previous designs!) -- and build hype as they go -- then I don't see why i can't be allowed to do a *little* bit of the same!
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Re: Hypothetical Marshal of the Commonwealth insignia

Unread postby Medic_in_Uniform » Fri Sep 26, 2014 9:46 pm

OK, I have quite a few updates which I'll try to upload when I have the time...!

First up: The Rifles.

I did a first pass at these quite a while back but I now have a better idea of how this might work, both in terms of the alternate history and also the uniforms.

The two main regiments in "rifle green" were (1) the Rifle Brigade, descended from the Experimental Rifle Corps formed in 1800, subsequently becoming the 95th Rifles (of the Sharpe novels) and (2) the King's Royal Rifle Corps, descended from the colonial 62nd (Royal American) Regiment formed in 1756, which subsequently became the 60th (Royal Americans) and then, in 1815, the Duke of York's Own Rifle Corps before finally being renamed as the KRRC. The 60th originally wore red but around the same time that the Experimental Rifle corps was forming, they were armed with Baker rifles and uniforms changed to green jackets with red facings.

Both units have similar histories as specialist units that valued marksmanship (particularly related to their being armed wit rifles, rather than muskets) and, as skirmishers, encouraged individual initiative whilst maintaining military discipline. Both saw extensive service during the Napoleonic wars.

So much for the background; in respect of the hypothetical alternate history in which all of this has been been developed, I am supposing that, in the reforms and down-sizing that followed WW1 (c. 1920), attempts were made to promote the idea of merging the Rifle Brigade and the KRRC. Unsurprisingly this met with considerable resistance although it was generally acknowledged that the two had much in common in terms of history, ethos, training and role. The compromise was that they would merge for the purposes of administration, training and procurement but retain the individual identities of their forebears.

Initially, the two names were retained, but the designations would later become "The Royal Rifle Brigade" for the whole combined unit and the regiment descended from the 95th would become "the Royal Rifle Regiment" with the KRRC unchanged. Battalions would be numbered separately for each regiment.

From a uniform point of view, a single pattern was agreed for the re-introduced full dress uniforms after the war; the cut, detailing and accoutrements would be the same for both regiments (both officer and other ranks versions) with the exception that the KRRC would retain their traditional scarlet collars (and cuffs for officers) with red detailing for enlisted ranks, whereas the Rifle Brigade would use black collars and cuffs with some off-white/ivory detailing for enlisted ranks. Embellishments with rank would be the same for both regiments but, where necessary, would be in regiment appropriate colours.

Both regiments would use the common general badge of the Crown over a strung bugle; this would be used for all collar badges and for side caps. Each regiment would, however, retain updated versions of their historic regimental cap badges, which would also be used for Officers' cross belts. Traditional elements would be used by both regiments and include blackened buttons and belts of polished black leather rather than white.

Head wear for full dress would be the standardised peaked forage cap, in Rifle Green with a black hat band and black piping. All ranks up to WO1 would wear plain black, Officers would wear a band of black oak leaf pattern lace. Field Officers' peaks would be embellished with a single row of black oak leaves. Both regiments would adopt new rifle green side caps, those for the KRRC would have a red crown, the Rifle Brigade would have a black crown. Other Ranks hats would have a Crown-and-bugle collar badge on the left hand side (on red or black backing, as appropriate); officers' hats would have additional black seam piping and would have a cord boss at the front with (red or black) with a small silver Crown and Bugle. WO1s would wear the officer pattern, other WOs would wear the officer style cord boss and small badge but on the OR-pattern side cap.

Warrant Officers Class 1 would wear officer-pattern uniforms (with some minor differences), Warrant Officers Class 2 (and Class 3, while the rank existed) would wear embellished versions of the Other Ranks uniform, including the SNCO scarlet shoulder sash with full dress. All grades of Warrant Officer would wear the officer-pattern bullion embroidered cap and collar badges rather than the metal Other Ranks badges.

It was originally intended to re-introduce the officer's crimson waist sash for full dress, as per other infantry regiments, but this was not popular with the officers of either regiment and it was ultimately dropped.


OK, now for the pics. The basic full dress for a Rifleman in each regiment would be exactly as shown for the Corporals but without the two-chevron sleeve rank markings. The officer pictures show subaltern / company-grade on the left then Field Officers and, finally, two senior officers on the right would be (1) a regimental Colonel wearing Royal equerry aguillettes and Royal cypher; this an honourary position and would usually be a senior officer (often a general officer) with a connection to the regiment, a local peer or a member of the Royal family) and (2) an officer promoted out of the regiment to a General Staff rank (in this case a brigade colonel) but wearing the Staff scarlet hat band and Royal Crest cap and collar badges on the uniform of his old unit.


1. Full Dress, Officers, KRRC

Rifles KRRC Full Dress Officer.jpg




2. Full Dress, Warrant Officers and Other Ranks, KRRC

Rifles KRRC Full Dress OR + WO.jpg




3. Full Dress, KRRC -- details

Rifles KRRC Full Dress details.jpg




4. Full Dress, Officers, the Rifle Brigade

Rifles RB Full Dress Officer.jpg




5. Full Dress, Warrant Officers and Other Ranks, the Rifle Brigade

Rifles RB Full Dress OR + WO.jpg




6. Full Dress, the Rifle Brigade -- details

Rifles RB Full Dress details.jpg




Edited to add in these (which I forgot):
Mess Dress for the KRRC and the RB

Again, agreed to consolidate on a single pattern of officer and other ranks uniforms, with the KRRC having scarlet and the RB generally having all black detailing.

Officer uniform is the same for all ranks in each regiment. WO1 wears officer-pattern but with plainer peaked cuffs (black cord edging but no Austrian knot) and no shoulder straps. WO2 and SNCO wear standard Staff/infantry-pattern but with Rifles-pattern waistcoat/vest and no shoulder straps. Again, WO have officer-pattern embroidered badges and SNCO have plain silver metal badges. Note that WO2 and other ranks in the RB have black shawl collars to their jackets with black cuffs, whereas the KRRC have Rifle Green collars (the same as the jackets) and scarlet cuffs. For both, Serjeants and Colour Serjeants have black waistcoats with plain black braid edging but WO2 have black waistcoats with black lace edging of the same pattern as the Officer/WO1 waiscoats, which incorporates lines of Rifle Green for the RB or scarlet for the KRRC.


7. Mess Dress: the King's Royal Rifle Corps

Rifles KRRC Mess Dress.jpg




8. Mess Dress: the Rifle Brigade

Rifles RB Mess Dress.jpg




Updates still to come include: Royal Navy, Royal Marines, Royal Artillery and Royal Engineers -- plus a few others. I'm also working on the combined rank chart for all services that was requested some time back!
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Re: Hypothetical Marshal of the Commonwealth insignia

Unread postby Medic_in_Uniform » Sat Sep 27, 2014 1:59 pm

Next up: The Corps of Royal Engineers

These are based on the late Victorian / Edwardian pre-WW1 dress uniforms but with the inclusion of the simplified and more standardised decorations with rank that are proposed for this time. Equally, the full dress headwear is of the new standard, with the Corps forage cap replacing the more ornate fur busby.


1. RE Officer and WO1 Full Dress

Collar and cuffs are of dark blue velvet. Corps cross-belts and sword belts are of crimson morocco leather with gold lace edging or full gold lace facing for senior officers. WO1 has black leather cross and sword belts, with crimson facing and gold lace edging, worn with the OR buckle. Cross belt back pouches are of black patent leather with Corps badges. The waved pattern of decoration on the cross-belts is a traditional RE feature. Infantry-style crimson silk waist sashes are not worn.

Warrant Officers Class 1 wear a variation of officer-pattern uniforms. Regimental Colonels and Colonels-Commandant wear Corps-pattern uniform with Colonel's embellishments and one row of gold oak leaves on a Corps-pattern forage cap. See below for variations relating to Staff and General Officers.

RE Full Dress Officer + WO1.jpg



2. RE WO2 and Other Ranks Full Dress

NCOs wear the RE flaming bomb device above their chevrons. Note that WO2s have a unique pattern of cross-belt. They may wear a sword with a white sword-belt if not in formation (also required for certain appointments) but if parading with troops will carry a rifle and wear a standard waist belt with bayonet. (There is no WO3 rank in any of the various support arms / Corps -- this is an infantry appointment only).

RE Full Dress OR + WO2.jpg



3. RE Full Dress and other details

RE Full Dress details.jpg



4. Engineer General Officer and Staff Officer Full Dress

Just as specialty branch General Officers and Staff Officers in, for example, the Royal Army Medical Corps have their own Corps-specific coloured full dress and mess dress, so I have chosen to implement this for some other Corps and branches, where branch-specific roles exist. Senior officers from specialist branches such as the Royal Engineers or the Royal Artillery may be promoted to full Colonel or above with General Staff appointments but not all will be given roles specific to their previous units, some will take on more generic Staff roles, in which case they would wear standard Staff or General Officer uniforms. For Corps-specific roles, both operational and honorary, specific uniform variations were authorised.

For the RE, the changes are relatively small; the tunic is still scarlet and the trousers standard pattern dark blue with scarlet welt or gold lace stripes. Collar and cuff decoration follows the established patterns for General Officers and General Staff Officers but uses the "peaked"-type cuff with gold lace trefoil knot rather than the round cuff and buttoned flap of the usual staff-pattern. Standard Staff / General Officer forage caps are worn; staff officers wear the usual bullion Royal Crest collar and cap badges, with Corps buttons; General Officers wear GO buttons and cap badge but add RE flaming bomb collar badges in silver bullion over their gold oakleaf collar embroidery. Corps cross-belts and waist belts are not worn and are replaced by the standard gold/crimson stripes waist sash.

RE Full Dress General Staff.jpg



5. RE Officer Mess Dress

Full-dress forage caps may be worn (and are required for formal receptions where white tie and white waistcoat/vest are worn) but Corps coloured side caps are the usual headwear with mess dress. Side cap badges and jacket collar badges are the RE bomb over the "UBIQUE" motto, bullion for Officers and WO. As the Corps uses more-or-less standard Staff / Infantry pattern mess dress, Corps-specific General and Staff Officers will wear standard GO / Staff-pattern mess dress, which is not shown.

RE Mess Dress Officers.jpg



7. RE WO and NCO Mess Dress

While still largely the preserve of Officers in this period, optional SNCO mess dress is beginning to become more broadly used with senior Sergeants joining Warrant Officers in this respect. Provision for optional junior NCO's mess dress is also included but most corporals (and quite a few sergeants) find and the expense prohibitive as this is not a fully issued item -- many are also rather suspicious of what they still see as rather snobby and upper-class "officer" behaviour!

RE Mess Dress NCO + WO.jpg



To follow: RE Service Dress and Field Dress
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Re: Hypothetical Marshal of the Commonwealth insignia

Unread postby Clive19 » Mon Sep 29, 2014 11:01 pm

The usual collection of stunners, amazing work
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Re: Hypothetical Marshal of the Commonwealth insignia

Unread postby knight2281 » Mon Sep 29, 2014 11:34 pm

These are great.
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Re: Hypothetical Marshal of the Commonwealth insignia

Unread postby Medic_in_Uniform » Wed Oct 01, 2014 1:56 pm

Thanks guys.


The Rifle regiments again:


1. Service Dress (Parade)

Much the same for both regiments but some minor differences in the details Both wear blackened bronze for all of: buttons, cap and collar badges, Officer insignia, WO insignia, Colour Serjeant crowns. KRRC officers wear red backing behind rank insignia, RB officers wear insignia without backing. Note that, as for full dress, both regiments wear their own cap badges but generic Crown & Bugle collar badges. NCO chevrons are black on khaki backing.

Officers and WO1 wear whistle-cords/lanyards on the right shoulder; WO2/3 and NCOs on the left shoulder; these are twisted rifle green and scarlet for KRRC, rifle green and black for RB. Note Field Officers' caps have leather peaks with one row of black oak leaves (as per Full Dress); all other ranks have plain cloth-covered peaks.

For parade in service dress, WO2 and below wear black regimental belts with the usual infantry pattern scarlet sashes for WO2/WO3 and Col.Sjt/Sjt. Officers and WO1 wear regimental cross-belts. All ranks wear black leather chin straps and, for parades, rifle green hatbands are worn by both regiments over standard khaki officer- or OR-pattern caps.

Rifles Service (Parade) Officer WO NCO.jpg




2. Officer Uniforms, service and field dress

Various officer uniforms, demonstrated by a Lieutenant-Colonel of the KRRB and a Captain of the RB. From the left,
- Field Officer Service Dress (Parade) as for (1), above.
- Officer barracks / walking-out Service Dress; note the black Sam Browne with blackened metal fittings in place of the cross-belt and the plain service dress cap or side cap.
- "Staff" pattern field dress with tailored collar and smaller pockets, worn here by a KRRB battalion CO with lanyard and collar badges.
- Standard field dress, with boots and canvas anklets. Side caps were often preferred to service dress caps. In field dress, both regiments wear red backing to officer ranks, denoting their Infantry role.

Rifles Service + Field Dress Officer.jpg
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Re: Hypothetical Marshal of the Commonwealth insignia

Unread postby Medic_in_Uniform » Sun Oct 05, 2014 5:18 pm

Back to the original topic of the thread for a moment...

Givan that this is the 1920s and such things are still would still be more commonly used than they are today, here are the frock coats for the Marshals of the Empire and Grand Admiral of the Empire.

These are a form of formal day-time Undress uniforms (as against the state ceremonial Full Dress). They would generally be worn with ribbons rather than medals (although there are some exceptions to this) and with one neck decoration and the star of one order (broad ribands are not worn).

Note the Navy version is worn with the undress cap and could be worn less formally with ribbons only (no neck decoration and no breast star) and no shoulder-boards -- essentially a long-coat version of the blue monkey jacket, in which case it would be worn either without a sword belt or with a plain undress belt (plain black leather, no bullion decoration, but with Flag Officer buckle). The basic coat is largely unchanged from earlier in the century when the frock coat could be worn by officers with either either epaulettes, dress belt and cocked hat or with undress belt (or no belt) and peaked cap, without epaulettes. It is now largely restricted to senior officers on occasions that do not call for daytime full dress.

The Army version is the standard General Officer frock coat, worn with overalls that have a plain scarlet welt to the side seam rather than the gold oak leaf lace stripes of the full dress. These traditionally have plain collars and cuffs of blue velvet. It may be worn without gold accoutrements/neck decoration/breast star, in which case the shoulder straps would be plain dark blue, faced with black oak leaf pattern lace and with black embroidered edging. When so worn, the gold and crimson sash may be replaced by the plain crimson officers' waist sash.

The RAF version of the frock coat is based on the Army-pattern coat. It has a dark blue-grey velvet collar but plain cuffs to allow for the wearing of sleeve rank lace; as this is an undress uniform, the black lace with blue central stripe is worn and the oak leaves are embroidered black silk, on a backing of blue-grey cloth, worn between the two rings of lace. The service cap with plain black hat band is worn and the embroidered shoulder rank markings have black crossed batons and black background the eagle and wreath (these would be sky-blue for full dress). The RAF version may be worn with ribbons only and no sash, in which case plain shoulder straps with rank devices and no bullion edging would be worn.

Marshals Frock Coats.jpg
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Re: Hypothetical Marshal of the Commonwealth insignia

Unread postby Clive19 » Tue Oct 07, 2014 7:57 pm

Good work as always

do you think there is a possibility for an Army version Lord High Admiral using titles like Lord Lieutenant, Viceroy, Governor etc? Probably with some other top title equivalent to LHA, made up though I think, as I can't think a real work equivalent. Maybe something like Marshal-in-Chief.
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Re: Hypothetical Marshal of the Commonwealth insignia

Unread postby Medic_in_Uniform » Tue Oct 07, 2014 9:28 pm

Hmmmm. Interesting. Did we discuss this before in this or another thread...?

Anyway, I guess you're thinking of a role which would be the ceremonial head of the Army (under the Monarch, as overall constitutional Commander-in-Chief), in the way that Prince Philip, the Duke of Edinburgh, is now Lord High Admiral and ceremonial head of the Royal Navy...? (As against the professional head of the Royal Navy, who is still the First Sea Lord and Chief of the Naval Staff.)

The role of Lord High Admiral was a court appointment of the mediaeval monarchy in England (and later Great Britain and then the United Kingdom) and was one of the nine Great Officers of State, rather than a military rank in the way that we would understand the term today. The current ceremonial role is something of a reinvention of the role specifically for Prince Philip.

The nearest Army equivalent in mediaeval terms would have been the Lord High Constable who was, nominally, the commander of the Royal armies. The role is currently unfilled (being broadly covered by two other Officers of State, the Earl Marshal and the Master of the Horse) but certainly had continuing appointments beyond medieval times, two notable appointees being the Field Marshals the Duke of Wellington in the mid-1800s and Viscount Alanbrooke in the 1950s.

The Wikipedia entries for Lord High Admiral, Lord High Constable and the Great Officers of State (as well as the entries for the other seven high offices) are worth a read.

As to uniform, I don't know and I'd have to hunt for photographic / portrait evidence but I strongly suspect that there might well be established ceremonial Court or State Dress for the role (as there is for Earl Marshal and Master of the Horse) but I also suspect that appointees like Alanbrooke and Wellington would simply have worn the ceremonial dress of their rank of Field Marshal, in the same way that the Duke of Edinburgh wears his rank of Admiral of the Fleet for his appointment as Lord High Admiral.

Having said all that, it would be kinda fun to design...!!

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Re: Hypothetical Marshal of the Commonwealth insignia

Unread postby marcpasquin » Tue Oct 07, 2014 11:21 pm

Medic_in_Uniform wrote:Hmmmm. Interesting. Did we discuss this before in this or another thread...?

Anyway, I guess you're thinking of a role which would be the ceremonial head of the Army (under the Monarch, as overall constitutional Commander-in-Chief), in the way that Prince Philip, the Duke of Edinburgh, is now Lord High Admiral and ceremonial head of the Royal Navy...? (As against the professional head of the Royal Navy, who is still the First Sea Lord and Chief of the Naval Staff.)

The role of Lord High Admiral was a court appointment of the mediaeval monarchy in England (and later Great Britain and then the United Kingdom) and was one of the nine Great Officers of State, rather than a military rank in the way that we would understand the term today. The current ceremonial role is something of a reinvention of the role specifically for Prince Philip.

The nearest Army equivalent in mediaeval terms would have been the Lord High Constable who was, nominally, the commander of the Royal armies. The role is currently unfilled (being broadly covered by two other Officers of State, the Earl Marshal and the Master of the Horse) but certainly had continuing appointments beyond medieval times, two notable appointees being the Field Marshals the Duke of Wellington in the mid-1800s and Viscount Alanbrooke in the 1950s.

The Wikipedia entries for Lord High Admiral, Lord High Constable and the Great Officers of State (as well as the entries for the other seven high offices) are worth a read.

As to uniform, I don't know and I'd have to hunt for photographic / portrait evidence but I strongly suspect that there might well be established ceremonial Court or State Dress for the role (as there is for Earl Marshal and Master of the Horse) but I also suspect that appointees like Alanbrooke and Wellington would simply have worn the ceremonial dress of their rank of Field Marshal, in the same way that the Duke of Edinburgh wears his rank of Admiral of the Fleet for his appointment as Lord High Admiral.

Having said all that, it would be kinda fun to design...!!

smilies-15


i can see a few possibilities for purely ceremonial ranks. One would be to have some sort of accessory instead of an insignia as the person might want to still display the rank he/she achieved through traditional means or might even be a civilian in some cases. This could be a sash with some embroideery, a baton or a medal.

Another possibility is to have an insignia that comes in 2 version, one worn with the court uniform for civilian and the other that is worn in addition to a rank insignia (like the provincial COA pins that are worn over their own insignias by aides to Lieutenant governors)

one last possibility is of course to have specific uniforms and / or insignias for the ceremonial ranks. To show that it is not an *actual* rank, it could be done using a different style or colour. For a RN officer that occupy a ceremonial position, the rings of his insignia could be replaced with a ring of oak leaves. For the army, special pips and crowns could replaace theusual ones for honourary colonel. I'm not aware of a special heraldic element used by british High Constables but their french equivalent had arms with swords issueing from clouds on each side of their personnal arms.

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Re: Hypothetical Marshal of the Commonwealth insignia

Unread postby Medic_in_Uniform » Tue Oct 07, 2014 11:29 pm

To be honest, I don't know all that much about it and would have to do a bit more research -- it would be nice to develop something that had some sort of historical roots and precedents rather than just dreaming something up from scratch...!

The additions to the arms of the Constables of France are interesting; on a slightly more subtle note, the arms of the Duke of Norfolk, as hereditary Earl Marshal, have crossed batons behind the shield -- which is all very well as a heraldic way of displaying the role within one's personal achievement of arms but not, perhaps, so helpful as a prominent emblem of office.

A chain and/or baton of office, worn over standard military uniform of appropriate rank would, I guess, be one option.

If anyone wants to join in the hunt for more information, be my guest!! smilies-15
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Re: Hypothetical Marshal of the Commonwealth insignia

Unread postby Medic_in_Uniform » Wed Oct 08, 2014 11:23 pm

This link is a short article on the emblems of office of a number of the Great Offices of State and a number of other Royal or Court Officers in the UK. It would be unfair to the original author to simply cut-and-paste bits of their work, better then that anyone interested surfs on over and has a read of the original! smilies-15

http://onceiwasacleverboy.blogspot.co.uk/2012/03/insignia-of-royal-officers.html?m=1

I know heraldry is not the core interest of this forum but I'm intrigued by the use of a similar enhancement to the arms of the Earl of Erroll, as hereditary Lord High Constable of Scotland to those described above by Marc for the Constable of France -- and apparently by the Constable of Navarre too.
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Re: Hypothetical Marshal of the Commonwealth insignia

Unread postby Clive19 » Mon Oct 13, 2014 10:15 pm

The thought I had was to take advantage of silver insignia on the already established uniforms and make up a couple more titles and positioned. So in that way similar to the Lord High Admiral, Vice Admiral of the UK and Rear Admiral of the UK.

The thought was they would maybe be military representatives of the crown in the different colonies. Lord Lieutenants would be the lowest in this (thinking of the real world instance where they are crown representatives in the counties), you could then step it up to small colonies, then large colonies and the top job (of whole empire) which could either be held by the sovereign or by someone else (similar to Lord High Admiral). They are however mostly ceremonial roles and so could hold those positions along with other responsibilities. Or they could even be military commanders of the forces in those areas, similar to General Officer Commanding London District, in charge of the areas forces and also a ceremonial figure in those areas.
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Re: Hypothetical Marshal of the Commonwealth insignia

Unread postby Medic_in_Uniform » Tue Oct 14, 2014 2:55 pm

Here are the updated uniform ranges for the Grand Admiral, the Marshal of the Empire and the RAF equivalent. This covers formal day and evening wear (ceremonial full dress and undress) as well as service dress and operational dress. Also included are greatcoats (and a bridge-coat for the Admiral; the Marshals would wear a similar coat of the "British Warm"-type for informal occasions / daily wear in the usual khaki/camel colour for the Army and Crombie blue-grey for the RAF).

They are otherwise pretty much self-explanatory so I won't add much else by way of detailed descriptions.

Enjoy! smilies-15

GAotE_1.jpg


GAotE_2.jpg


MotE_1.jpg


MotE_2.jpg


MotE_RAF_1.jpg


MotE_RAF_2.jpg
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Re: Hypothetical Marshal of the Commonwealth insignia

Unread postby Medic_in_Uniform » Tue Oct 14, 2014 2:57 pm

Clive19 wrote:The thought I had was to take advantage of silver insignia on the already established uniforms and make up a couple more titles and positioned. So in that way similar to the Lord High Admiral, Vice Admiral of the UK and Rear Admiral of the UK.


I think I understand what you mean -- I'll have a think about it and get back to you.

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Re: Hypothetical Marshal of the Commonwealth insignia

Unread postby Logan616 » Sat Oct 18, 2014 9:41 pm

I have a question concerning the picture of Rifle Regiment Cuffs (Page 4):

Would I be correct in assuming that the four regiments are, from top to bottom:

1. The Rifle Brigade (Prince Consort's Own) [formerly the 95th (Rifle) Regiment];

2. The Royal Ulster Rifles [formerly the Royal Irish Rifles; and before that, the 83rd (County of Dublin) Regiment and the 86th (Royal County Down) Regiment];

3. The King's Royal Rifle Corps [formerly the 60th (Royal American) Regiment]; and

4. The Cameronians (Scottish Rifles) [formerly the 26th (Cameronian) Regiment and the 96th (Perthshire Light Infantry) Regiment]?

Or have I got them completely wrong?
Attachments
107 - Rifles 1920 Full Dress Cuffs.jpg
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Re: Hypothetical Marshal of the Commonwealth insignia

Unread postby Medic_in_Uniform » Sat Oct 18, 2014 10:53 pm

Hi! Good question...

If I'm absolutely honest, I hadn't actually put *that* much thought into the breakdown or allocation by individual rifle regiments when I put that particular set of illustrations together; I guess I was experimenting with how I might use the three standard core variants on the dress uniform cuff designs (the Guards-type round cuff with buttoned flap, the peaked cuff topped with trefoil knot and the gauntlet cuff). Your assumtion regarding the allocation of the different cuffs would certainly have worked but at the very least I'd have wanted change the top row to black cuffs for all ranks (for the RB/95th) and probably reduce the amount of scarlet for all the others except the KRRC. The gauntlet cuffs would definitely work for a Scottish regiment though

My original intention was to have something like a merged Rifle Brigade that incorporated all the various rifle regiments then in existence. This was before the days of Commandos and Special Forces but the rifle regiments had always been something of that ilk since their inception; they valued individual initiative, were armed with more advanced weaponry (for their time) and operated as skirmishers ahead of the formed infantry regiments. This may have been lost somewhat in the trenches of France and Belgium in 1914-18 but could have been revived and re-invigorated for a newly mechanised and mobile light infantry corps in the aftermath of the Great War -- and maybe the riflemen could have been the troops to take on that role.

For the designs, I started out with the idea of using a broadly standard dress uniform but with unique cuff variants for each constituent regiment. When I looked back at the earlier pictures, however, I decided that there was almost too much scarlet (and definitely too much silver) for many of the traditional rifle uniforms and I'd also ignored a lot of the existing traditional regimental details -- that's why I went back and re-drew them to come up with the updates that I posted above for the RB and the KRRC. I also decided to re-include the full Austrian knot cuff decoration for the officers on the basis that the black lace on dark Rifle green was relatively subtle so a more detailed knot was justified and would help the decoration to stand out. I guess it's inevitable that as I work on all these designs over a period of years (!) that they will become both more subtle and more sophisticated in terms of the details I include.

It's a very valid point that I should also look to expand that concept to include the RUR and the Cameronians, and probably the Gurkhas too. I'll have a think about that...
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Re: Hypothetical Marshal of the Commonwealth insignia

Unread postby Logan616 » Tue Oct 21, 2014 9:21 pm

Concerning the Lord High Constable insignia:

One thing I noticed about the Admiralty Anchor insignia used by the Lord High Admiral is how it might (hypothetically) be replaced with a designed incorporating a sword(s), which seems the most appropriate symbol for the Army to use (and which is also used as a symbol on the flags of Lord-Lieutenants). Perhaps a design similar to that used as a badge by Knight Bachelors would work? (In real life, it wasn't until 1926 that Knight Bachelors were allowed such a badge)

Alternatively, perhaps the anchor could be replaced with a design based upon the Order of the Garter?
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