It is currently Tue Apr 25, 2017 5:32 pm
Change font size

HYPOTHETICAL RANKS

Hypothetical Space Force Ranks

Dealing primarily with contemporary and historical Earth nations. (Science-fiction oriented rank systems, such as Star Trek, Starship Troopers, etc.), should be placed in FICTIVE Rank Insignia.

Moderators: Miklós Lovász, Pavel Močoch, Erskine Calderon, Zdzislaw Rudzki

Hypothetical Space Force Ranks

Unread postby general_tiu » Tue Mar 20, 2007 12:48 pm

I wonder if countries like US develop space forces in the Future , what ranks could they use? Would it be naval-based? Army-based? Something original? IMO, The future US Space Force would be based on USAF, since the US Space Command is [by scifi novel knowledge] the predecessor of the US space force. ANy comments?
general_tiu
COMMUNICANT
COMMUNICANT
 
Posts: 128
Joined: Tue Nov 14, 2006 8:07 am
Location: Philippines

Unread postby Nila MadhaVa » Thu Mar 22, 2007 9:47 am

it is an interesting question. in sci-fi it is always a star fleet type setup, but with US space stuff under the air force (i belive, correct me if im wrong) it would seem logical that this space force would follow air force structure, if not being a sub division of the air force itself. it poses some interesting porbabilities for organization like a colonel commanding a ship, with captains commanding squadrons of starfighters and with lt cols and majs commanding smaller vessels and other duties abord larger ships. generals would obviously command larger groupings of ships and personnel. i have no idea what they might be called though.

the army and marines would still have to do the ground pounding and to allow for boarding an enemy ship in battle.

u might wonder wat would become of the navy...well i think that naval forces would still be needed to control the oceans of new worlds if colonized and the oceans of earth of course (we will always need ships to move things across the world and need a naval option in warfare)

however i think it is very possibly for a space force of the future to evolve from the air force, taking its rank structure and insignia with some superficial changes to the titles themselves to indicate the space force ie general of the space force or some such. but like i said before it is usualy a space NAVY that we see depicted, so maybe the real navy would get its mits on the prize, who knows
We cannot choose the hour of our death. But we can choose what to do with the time we are given.
Nila MadhaVa
VISITOR
VISITOR
 
Posts: 94
Joined: Sun Oct 05, 2003 2:39 pm

Unread postby ELSUPREMO » Sat Mar 24, 2007 7:40 pm

Whatever might be used, it should be a simple, colorful and easily identifiable system. Most sci-fi makes insignia too gawdy, complex, jewelry-like and usually un-military, even though some have created good attempts at a logical system. I personally knew the costume (and insignia) designer Bob Fletcher who created the rank and uniform systems for the first several Star Trek movies. He gave me unprecedented access to his prototypes and allowed me to document them all in articles I wrote for several militaria journals in the mid 1980s. In person they were well made one-offs and yet I still think they were too complex, and did not follow any logical progression (the Flag Officers) that made sense to me. They were more like jewelry than functional and easily recognizable insignia of grade.
ELSUPREMO
 

Unread postby Robbie JN » Sun Mar 25, 2007 10:39 pm

A few years ago when I used to play 'X-Wing Vs Tie-Fighter' online I had a club with which I combined RN(FAA) and RAF ranks.
It went as follows:
Admiral; Marshal; Vice Marshal; Commodore; Captain; Commander; Leader; Lieutenant; Sub Lieutenant; Officer;
Master; Chief Sergeant; Sergeant; Corporal; Leading Crewman; Crewman.
I got rid of all the long-winded titles of the RAF relating to unit size and filled in the gaps of the Navy, eg replacing LtCdr with Leader, based on S/Ldr. Officer based on P/O, Master on MAcr and Master-At-Arms, Chief Sergeant as a mix of F/Sgt, CPO and CTech, and Crewman based on a mix of Aircraftman and Aircrewman (FAA), minus the air part.
I have some illustrations of the insignia but they are quite small, not very good to look at, and I am not entirely sure how to incorporate them into this message.
Robbie JN
VISITOR
VISITOR
 
Posts: 31
Joined: Sun Aug 29, 2004 12:54 pm
Location: England

Unread postby Medic_in_Uniform » Thu Mar 29, 2007 12:51 pm

With respect, El Supremo, I actually quite like Bob Fletcher's designs for the Starfleet rank insignia from the Star Trek movies. They're certainly not what I would have used (or indeed anything like what I would have come up with) but they're certainly inventive and unique to that particular fictional universe.

I can definitely see a distinct pattern of progression throughout the entire rank scheme and I'm also pretty certain that as well as the unique insignia there was a progressive pattern of gold/coloured lace sleeve-markings with increasing numbers of overlaid lozenges for the flag ranks - all of which was intended to be an integral part of the markings for those grades.

The original designs for the various ranks weren't always used accurately or correctly by the wardrobe departments when the various films were made so some of the on-screen versions differ a little from the concept drawings.

For those unfamiliar with these insignia, here's a pic based on the original designs by Mr Fletcher:

Image
Medic_in_Uniform
ADMINISTRATOR
ADMINISTRATOR
 
Posts: 455
Joined: Sun Jan 07, 2007 7:33 pm

Unread postby BW » Thu Mar 29, 2007 1:57 pm

Interesting to see the real design (Thanks to Medic!!). I always felt there's something wrong with the film ranks. Especially they often used the Lieutenant Commander symbol for lieutenants ... smilies-01

I see one handicap: The marks for RA, VA, Adm and AF are a bit to similar to differ them well.

Greets, BW
BW
VISITOR
VISITOR
 
Posts: 38
Joined: Wed Feb 08, 2006 8:42 am
Location: Vienna, Austria

Unread postby ELSUPREMO » Thu Mar 29, 2007 3:05 pm

I certainly did note the progression and pattern of the Star Trek badges. Bob Fletcher was so very kind to me. I met him at his house and together we went to Paramount Studios where he escorted me to an unmarked door on a nondescript building. He unlocked the door and we ascended a staircase to an upper floor. In total amazement as I exited the stairwell, I looked around and saw what looked like a clothing department in a large department store, only to realize that this was the Star Trek costume department. Every costume, uniform, badge and accessory that Paramount had that was Star Trek, from the first series to the then current film in production was present! I was given free reign to try on uniforms, open drawers containing insignia, and basically drool over everything. I was permitted to photograph anything I wanted, and I did. I collected photographs of everything rank related for my articles. As an indulgence, I tried on Admiral James T. Kirk's Admiral's tunic from Star Trek: The Motion Picture, the tunic with all accessories of the Admiral of the Fleet Chief-in-Command head of Starfleet from, if I remember, the third movie, and the beautiful heavy overcoat type red outer jacket worn by Kirk in The Wrath of Khan. They all fit great, and I did'nt want to take them off. Bob offered to have one of the red jackets made up for me at his cost of $2,000, but I respectfully declined. As far as rank badges, he gave me a signed copy of his outline and drawings of the full sequence of ranks and badges, and he arranged that I would get a personal collection of actual badges, many of which were never seen on screen. Seeing them all in person, holding and examining them is much different than seeing them on a page as a drawing. They do look great all laid out on a table, but I still feel that they are impractical as actual insignia as they are filled with detail much too small to be seen at a distance or easily recognizable. There is too much similarity among them and they are easily confused. While I do like them as a scifi set, and as part of the Star Trek universe, I wish Bob had discussed them with me before he finalized them. In fact, at the time, I suggested to him that my knowledge of ranks might be useful, and should he again have the need to create ranks for another production, he was free to call upon me. Sadly, that never happened. It was a highlight in association with rank insignia!
ELSUPREMO
 

Unread postby ELSUPREMO » Thu Mar 29, 2007 3:12 pm

I particularly agree with the comment on the similarities of the metal Star Trek Admiral badges. They are much too similar to be easily differentiated. I might add that the badges for Admiral of the Fleet only came in two sizes, large for the sleeve, and small for the shoulder. One of each was worn on the appropriate uniform jacket. The Admiral sleeve laces are much more logical in sequence. In fact, Bob Fletcher told me that in the first two Star Trek films, the sleeve lace he used was recognized by so many fans as that used in the then fairly recent Battlestar Galactica, that he was forced to find something new for further Star Trek films. He showed me cloth material he found in the Paramount vault that was made in France in the early 20th century, that was unique, and that was impossible to replicate. He was very happy with this. And it was this cloth that he used to construct the Admiral sleeve lace, upon which he placed between 1 to 5 rectangular bars denoting the level of Admiral.
ELSUPREMO
 

Unread postby J.T. Broderick » Thu Mar 29, 2007 4:10 pm

I agree that the metal pin insignia are a little hard to follow (perhaps contributing to the costumers' mistakes?) and some are too similar. But the only real objection I have to them is the whole concept. Having such a drastic change in uniforms and insignia in the short time between the first two movies would seem to indicate a radical upheaval or regime change of some sort! And if they were starting with a clean slate and designing new rank insignia, it seems to me that a simpler, more intuitive symbol set would be much more likely than the metal pin devices. They seem more like something that evolved gradually.

Best regards,
Justin
J.T. Broderick
CORRESPONDENT
CORRESPONDENT
 
Posts: 209
Joined: Thu Jan 15, 2004 4:33 pm
Location: Salt Lake City, Utah, USA

Unread postby ELSUPREMO » Thu Mar 29, 2007 5:03 pm

I agree. Simple is best. Just look at the Italian system from World War II, especially the collar badges, not to mention the German system, and you see the incredible complexity that only serves to confuse. A lot of information is contained in those insignia, and it seems that only the blood type of the wearer is left out!
ELSUPREMO
 

Unread postby Medic_in_Uniform » Fri Mar 30, 2007 12:12 am

I guess that once you've reached flag rank, the subtle nuances of exactly which grade are a little less relevant to your subordinates...! But the detail of the rank progression was there in the stripes and lozenges as much as the four-point "star" emblems.

All flag officers tunics had a narrow stripe of gold soutache inside the black edging of the free lapel; Admiral of the Fleet had a double stripe. In addition, there was an extra band around the left sleeve of the uniform jacket, worn above the service band, and the trouser stripes are wider than those seen on the standard officers' uniform. Both of the above varied according to the rank of the wearer, as shown below. The irridescent nature of the fabric used for the central part of the flag officers' sleeve stripes doesn't translate well to a simple drawing but you get the general idea...

Image

Personally, I always thought that the subtle updating of Bill Theiss' original Starfleet sleeve stripes which was used for Bob Fletcher's uniforms for the Motion Picture were nicely done - I especially liked the way the sleeve stripes were transferred to the simpler fore-and-aft shoulder straps for some of the costumes.
Medic_in_Uniform
ADMINISTRATOR
ADMINISTRATOR
 
Posts: 455
Joined: Sun Jan 07, 2007 7:33 pm

Unread postby ELSUPREMO » Fri Mar 30, 2007 1:25 am

Nice drawings!
Last edited by ELSUPREMO on Fri Mar 30, 2007 3:53 am, edited 1 time in total.
ELSUPREMO
 

Unread postby Medic_in_Uniform » Fri Mar 30, 2007 2:03 am

It's been a while since I did those drawings but they were taken straight from Mr Fletcher's notes. I've also found a decent pic of the Admiral of the Fleet sleeve markings - definitely just the four lozenges! They don't parallel the contemporary US Navy admirals' stars.

I do need to update the pattern on the fabric of the central braid though!

Image
Medic_in_Uniform
ADMINISTRATOR
ADMINISTRATOR
 
Posts: 455
Joined: Sun Jan 07, 2007 7:33 pm

Unread postby ELSUPREMO » Fri Mar 30, 2007 3:43 am

I held in hand and somewhere do still have my closeup color photographs (for a future posting if I can find them and figure out how to download them) of the actual sleeve bands and photographed them. I now remember that the Commodore had the Flag officer band and each succeeding elevation in grade received a rectangle, making the Admiral of the Fleet the recipient of four rectangles. I wish Bob's system was different as I would like to have seen Admiral of the Fleet with five rectangles instead of four. I also remember extensive talks with Bob about the inspirations he had for the insignia, the materials used, the concepts he created and the effect he sought. I vividly remember discussing with him the fact that those uniforms with shoulder flaps looked like World War I aviation uniforms, and that Nazi uniforms used cuff titles very similar in design and placement to the sleeve rings he created for Star Trek which horrified him. He was very interested in these facts, and he told me that he had not know about this and after he determined that there were similarities, and told me that this was not an influence in his designs.
ELSUPREMO
 

Unread postby Robbie JN » Sat Mar 31, 2007 1:04 am

With space travel as it is at the moment it is sort of logical to use Air Force ranks, as shuttles in NASA have cockpits or flight decks, just like aircraft, plus crews of only about 10 or so, like old bomber crews or current surveillance planes. If they increase in size to the point of cockpits and flight decks evolving into 'bridges', just like naval vessels have, then it would be logical to move into a more naval structure. Since the USAF uses Army titles for it's officers, and most other ranks, this would be a significant change, but for RAF-style countries it would be less of an alteration, hence my previous message on amalgamating RN and RAF ranks.
Robbie JN
VISITOR
VISITOR
 
Posts: 31
Joined: Sun Aug 29, 2004 12:54 pm
Location: England

Unread postby ELSUPREMO » Sat Mar 31, 2007 3:46 am

Using air force ranks and titles might be logical, but there is something historic and almost magical about using naval titles and ranks for the ships of the stars on the oceans of the cosmos!
ELSUPREMO
 

Unread postby general_tiu » Thu Apr 12, 2007 9:04 am

Now I found out how the British Royal Space Force will get it's officer ranks. I've caome across that WAAF site and stared long at the stripes with lozenges. I had to chose, if I would retain the naval ranks though, or like in the RAF's case, make a different one altogether.
general_tiu
COMMUNICANT
COMMUNICANT
 
Posts: 128
Joined: Tue Nov 14, 2006 8:07 am
Location: Philippines

Unread postby Medic_in_Uniform » Thu Apr 12, 2007 8:30 pm

Have you read any of the Nicholas Seafort books by the late David Feintuch? Very "Hornblower" like stories but set in a future space-faring UN Naval Service, derived heavily from the Royal Navy, with a lot of historical influences. Worth a look if you haven't seen them.
http://www.nickseafort.com

Personally, I understand your logic; at the moment, it would seem perfectly reasonable that a space service with small craft and limited crew size would extrapolate naturally from contemporary Air Forces (I can imagine stories set around the escapades of a small crew, much like those of, say a bomber crew from WWII (Memphis Belle in space...?)) whereas a much larger and more sophisticated space-faring agency with big capital vessels and much larger crews (in true Star Trek fashion) lends itself far more readily to a Naval model.

Quite how a British space force (relative to the US Air Force space command) would evolve is an interesting question! I'll happily draw up some designs for you if you describe what you have in mind - but I'm afraid I won't be able to do it until the Summer!
Medic_in_Uniform
ADMINISTRATOR
ADMINISTRATOR
 
Posts: 455
Joined: Sun Jan 07, 2007 7:33 pm

Unread postby Erskine Calderon » Thu Apr 12, 2007 9:28 pm

I prefer David Weber's Honor Harrington series.
User avatar
Erskine Calderon
ADMINISTRATOR
ADMINISTRATOR
 
Posts: 446
Joined: Tue Jan 14, 2003 2:57 am

Unread postby Miklós Lovász » Thu Apr 12, 2007 10:28 pm

When the Brits decided they needed an air force, they also crafted some unique ranks. So, how about something like this (for a big fleet with both one-man ships and bigger ones): "leader"-type ranks for small craft officers (fighters, interceptors, you name it) and something with lieutenants and captains for the rest of the fleet? Let see what comes out of it:

pilot officer/second lieutenant
squadron leader/first lieutenant
wing leader/second captain
group leader/first captain
commodore
flotilla commander
division commander
fleet commander
commander-general
User avatar
Miklós Lovász
ADMINISTRATOR
ADMINISTRATOR
 
Posts: 434
Joined: Mon Mar 24, 2003 2:11 pm
Location: Bucharest, Romania

Unread postby lordziba » Fri Apr 13, 2007 5:28 am

Hi, since I am adept for space force uniforms and insignias (Erskine knows me for long time smilies-15), I stayed long enough out of this discussion. In a nutshell, everything depends on two factors: 1st – the traditions of the space-faring state and 2nd – a purpose of the force. For instance, I discover over the years, how to create united/combine arms generic forces: Hand, Noncom, Lieutenant, Commandant, Commander, and Marshal. What bugs me personally in British system, there logically cannot be a Wing Leader of Intelligence, Security, or Engineering, or other “none-Line” duty. Another thing, entire idea of independent rank system for Starfighter/small craft corps is ... Stupid. Do not forget – they are just part of a much larger force. And last, my favorite, Commander-General? For Gods’ sake, if there fleet, there no Colonels or Generals, or Majors. If there no place for an Admiral, then use – Marshal. Here, I want to introduce my versions to a contrary of Erskine:

Pilot Officer/ Subaltern
Flying Officer/Lieutenant
Flight Leader/Lieutenant-Commandant
Squadron Leader/Commandant
Wing Leader/Commander
Group Leader/Group/Force Commander

Vice-Marshal
Marshal
High Marshal
Armada Marshal
Senior/Commanding Armada Marshal* – only one! smilies-04

Zibster, honrable colonel, Tikanov Guards.
lordziba
REDACTOR
REDACTOR
 
Posts: 365
Joined: Mon Feb 09, 2004 7:42 am
Location: was Ukraine now the United States

Unread postby Miklós Lovász » Fri Apr 13, 2007 7:13 am

Dear lordziba.

Thank you for calling my ideas stupid. I don't recall anybody ever calling your ideas stupid ... so perhaps you should make amends.

Second, "general" is not always a rank - think secretary general or consul general. I'm sure that you don't thnk Ban Ki Moon would be some sort of four-star officer smilies-15
So "commander general" only means "first", "foremost" or "most senior" commander.

Thirdly, I agree that superficially looking, there can be no reason for a wing commander, intelligence. However, this only means that you are confusing rank and appointment. The title of the rank is "wing commander" and the person who holds that rank can hold any number of positions, in any branch of service. In the French and Polish systems, there are division generals and army generals, who are seldom actually in command of a division or an army. So, following your logic, they should change their style every time they change their billet, right?

And finally, for the "they are only part of a larger force" part: according to your logic, Marines should wear naval style titles, as they are only part of the Navy. I'm sorry, but I really can't see the logic here. Not to mention, that we are talking about future and hypothetical ranks, not about something that already exists.
User avatar
Miklós Lovász
ADMINISTRATOR
ADMINISTRATOR
 
Posts: 434
Joined: Mon Mar 24, 2003 2:11 pm
Location: Bucharest, Romania

Unread postby lordziba » Fri Apr 13, 2007 8:38 am

Thank you for calling my ideas stupid. I don't recall anybody ever calling your ideas stupid ... so perhaps you should make amends.

Maybe, but, nevertheless, it is not an insult to a person, but rather to defined idea, so, please does not take it personally, but as a note of healthy criticism (in which, indeed I might be said over-harshly, so, sorry for that). And regarding calling my ideas stupid, I heard like one million times, do not worry, I’ll rise like a phoenix... smilies-15

Second, "general" is not always a rank - think secretary general or consul general. I'm sure that you don't think Ban Ki Moon would be some sort of four-star officer.

Ok, maybe so, what about Secretary-Martial? I am not going to start a dispute over semantics, here, I clearly misunderstood, since I was in the “Navy Mode.”

However, this only means that you are confusing rank and appointment. The title of the rank is "wing commander" and the person who hold that rank can hold any number of positions, in any branch of service. In the French and Polish systems, there are division generals and army generals, who are seldom actually in command of a division or an army. So, following your logic, they should change their style every time they change their billet, right?

According to my logic – Generic Ranks! No Generals of Division, nor Corps, nor even Colonel, everything depends on national idea. But in a future, for most part, going to be one military force, only rich powers going allowed to have a separate space navy, ground forces, and so forth. According to my “ Poor Man Efficient Force Doctrine,” there going to be one generic combine force akin, let say, to a “Super Dimensional Cavalry Southern Cross,” or “Free Planet Alliance Forces,” where the same force responsible for aerospace and ground/wet naval defense. Another words, same ranks, same uniforms, only the specialty badges different.

Marines should wear naval style titles, as they are only part of the Navy, [continuously, there should not be any “Marine Aviation,” since it solemn duty of the Navy – cover its troops] I'm sorry, but I really can't see the logic here.

Indeed, just like Russian, French, and others. Furthermore, I even developed generic and specific (different from Army – GROPOS) ranks for “Marines,” one thing there not going to any “Marines” left in direct sense, however it would be assigned as a tradition to a let say Space Mobile Deployment Forces or so.

Zibster, a honored "Force Commander" (generic for Colonel) of Tikonov Guards smilies-10
lordziba
REDACTOR
REDACTOR
 
Posts: 365
Joined: Mon Feb 09, 2004 7:42 am
Location: was Ukraine now the United States

Unread postby Miklós Lovász » Fri Apr 13, 2007 8:52 am

I'm sorry, but I must disagree.
First, I still resent having my ideas called stupid - and it's not in the style of this forum o do so, therefore in the future please refrain rom calling anybody's ideas so.

Second, as I pointed out, we're talking about the FUTURE. First of all, we can have no idea whatsoever whether there would be one or several human state(s), so all we can do is speculate. Which, by the way, is quite different than enunciate (kindly look up in the dictionary the difference between them). So, we can come up with different systems, ranging from very traditional, present-system-based ones to anything as esoteric you wish. Nevertheless, the main point is that anybody's ideas may or may not be valid - and it's definitely not us that would decide.
User avatar
Miklós Lovász
ADMINISTRATOR
ADMINISTRATOR
 
Posts: 434
Joined: Mon Mar 24, 2003 2:11 pm
Location: Bucharest, Romania

Unread postby J.T. Broderick » Fri Apr 13, 2007 1:06 pm

A couple of points on this subject...

First, about a title such as "wing leader" being illogical if they don't actually lead a wing. It does seem that way, but if you look back in history, all ranks were specific job titles. If you go back far enough, a captain did one thing only: command a company. A hundred years or so ago, it was unthinkable that a chaplain or surgeon would have a "military" officer title, because they didn't command anything. All this has changed, and now no one even thinks about it, just as nobody worries that in the US Army colonels command brigades, not brigadier generals. Likewise, the RAF officer ranks no longer bear much relation to the echelon in the title. Wing commanders command squadrons, a dentist can be a squadron leader, and so on. Nobody gives this much thought, they are just rank titles.

So, I think a hypothetical future/space rank system can be about anything. You can't always — or even usually — apply logic to these things, where tradition and institutional inertia are so powerful.

Second, about the suffix "general," as in "commander-general." In that case, "general" is neither "ground" nor "sea," it is just a modifier that means "overall." Originally what we now call "general" was "captain-general," it just got shortened over the years. The US Navy has a "surgeon general," nobody thinks his/her title should be "surgeon admiral."

About a hypothetical rank system itself, I agree that the air force has the lead, at least in the US. However, it is interesting to speculate what a RAF-style blank-sheet rank system would be like. "Captain" seems to be the most intuitive term for a person in charge of a vessel. It is also standard in commercial aviation. In that way, I think Miklós's system makes sense, having captain and lieutenant as "primal" ranks. The US military uses "aircraft commander" for a pilot in charge, so a system based around the title of commander might also be likely.

It also bears considering how the space service would evolve. At first, as others have said, it would certainly involve small crews. The crews would also be all commissioned officers for quite some time. And the spacecraft officers would tend to be highly qualified and relatively senior, at least at first. You might have a crew of all O-5's and O-6's, with one senior colonels/captains in charge. As small spacecraft become more common, the rank level would go down the scale, I think, with maybe an O-4 or O-5 in charge. (Placing "captain" at O-4 level reminds me of the pre-WW1 US Coast Guard)

For the higher ranks, the air force types will certainly have an advantageous position to defend their "general" titles. However, "admiral" has a strong connection to fleets, if the space force is organized into fleets. For a neutral title, "space marshal" makes sense to me.

Space flight will be very expensive for a long time, and I think it is likely that all spaceflight personnel will have officer-level qualifications and training unless there is some breakthrough that makes it cheap to lift massive objects into orbit. How enlisted personnel will fit in is interesting to consider. I think it likely that they would remain "ground" personnel for a very long while.

At any rate, it has been an interesting discussion!

Best regards,
Justin
J.T. Broderick
CORRESPONDENT
CORRESPONDENT
 
Posts: 209
Joined: Thu Jan 15, 2004 4:33 pm
Location: Salt Lake City, Utah, USA

Unread postby J.T. Broderick » Fri Apr 13, 2007 1:15 pm

Medic_in_Uniform wrote:Quite how a British space force (relative to the US Air Force space command) would evolve is an interesting question! I'll happily draw up some designs for you if you describe what you have in mind - but I'm afraid I won't be able to do it until the Summer!


Well, fictionally speaking, there's Dan Dare's Space Fleet! Not officially UK but clearly more British-influenced than anything else. It had basically army ranks, but I believe the "Controller," Sir Hubert, had the rank of space marshal. Their insignia for officers were based on shoulder boards with stripes and circles in primary colors. Frank Hampson was so thorough in designing his comic strip that I would not be surprised if he had worked out a whole system, but what it is I don't have enough info to try and figure out.

Best regards,
Justin
J.T. Broderick
CORRESPONDENT
CORRESPONDENT
 
Posts: 209
Joined: Thu Jan 15, 2004 4:33 pm
Location: Salt Lake City, Utah, USA

Unread postby BW » Fri Apr 13, 2007 3:54 pm

Hi all!

Justin is right: a Space Navy won't often use non-officers. Because at least the minor things would be handled by droids. Furthermore I think in the future even some very special things like repairing and medical treatment would be made by machines, they will work much better than humans.
Therefore you primary need a crew for
1) final data analysis
2) and making decisions.
You will need best educated personal for that work, so only officers seem appropriate. And all that analysis and decision stuff happens on the bridge. Let's see how much consols are needed:
1) navigation,
2) communication,
3) weapons,
4) scanning,
5) machine control
6) and maybe an extra console for the commander.
On smaller vessels some of these consols may get combined, so that you need only two to four persons on the bridge. On the other hand on very large vessels (with much more weapons, scanners etc) some of the consols may even be twice; so there would be about five to ten officers needed. Multiply those numbers with two or three shifts and you know how "large" space crews will be.

Regarding to the rank system question I also think that navy ranks would be the best choice. A ship needs a captain and a fleet an admiral ... smilies-05

Greets, BW
BW
VISITOR
VISITOR
 
Posts: 38
Joined: Wed Feb 08, 2006 8:42 am
Location: Vienna, Austria

Unread postby lordziba » Fri Apr 13, 2007 5:51 pm

Miklós Lovász // Fri Apr 13, 2007 8:52 am

I'm sorry, but I must disagree.
First, I still resent having my ideas called stupid - and it's not in the style of this forum o do so, therefore in the future please refrain rom calling anybody's ideas so.

After careful reading again, I have to retract my apology since, I DID NOT call your ideas stupid, what implied that for some reason many (unless ur gonna be call Al Gore of Starfighter Corps, then indeed sorry) separate corps of Starfighter/Small Craft pilots as semi-independent entity akin to “Marine” Corps with own chain of command and rank system, in which I argue as stupid, since they too, part of the fleet, even more then “marines.”

I hope this can clarify the “stupid” dispute, Zibster!
lordziba
REDACTOR
REDACTOR
 
Posts: 365
Joined: Mon Feb 09, 2004 7:42 am
Location: was Ukraine now the United States

Unread postby Medic_in_Uniform » Fri Apr 13, 2007 6:46 pm

I'm losing the plot of this detailed argument above...! smilies-01

In most traditions, the RANK title is entirely independent of the ROLE description. Within the Royal Navy, the US Navy and many other similar services around the globe the titles used for officer ranks are consistent, regardless of the specialist role of the individual concerned:

The naval rank of, say, Lieutenant, for example, may, for example, apply to any of: a bridge watch officer; an armaments or warfare technology officer; a fighter or helicopter pilot; an engineer; an intelligence officer; a medical or nursing officer; an administrative or legal officer... anyway, you get the general idea! The RANK with always be LIEUTENANT but the specific name of the role that they perform within the service to will vary according to the officer's specialist training and posting.

As to marines having military and not naval ranks, well that's just a historical inheritance from the fact that their primary role was as "soldiers afloat" and it has been deemed both traditional and appropriate to maintain that distinction from naval personnel involved in the actual sailing and fighting of the ships and (all the other naval branches which ultimately support that function).

The Royal Air Force rank titles can, at times, appear confusing and the fact that they are all apparently geared towards "air-crew" roles is difficult to understand and would seem to sit uneasily with other roles within the service, such as engineering ground-crew, intelligence, medical, etc.

If, however, it is decided when an organisation such as the RAF is founded to establish a new tradition that the terms "flight," "squadron" and "wing" are to be the generic titles for ALL sub-units of the organisation, regardless of whether they are flying roles or not then the officer titles make much more sense. Flight, Squadron, Wing and Group may not be exactly equivalent to Platoon, Company, Battalion and Brigade but they are certainly analagous terms.

This example is not intended to directly represent the contemporary RAF but let's say an operational "Group" may have a flying "Wing" composed of several "Squadrons," each, in turn, made up of a number of "Flights". This may be backed-up by a non-flying "support Wing" comprised of a number of engineering squadrons, a medical squadron, and so on. In that respect, the officer rank titles are not intended solely to indicate specifically "air-crew" roles but rather to give an indication of the level of command at which that officer operates.

Obviously, the way in which this works nowadays has deviated somewhat from the structure of the RAF when it was first established so the direct level of equivalency between operational sub-unit and corresponding officer title has disappeared a little but it is still possible to track back to those origins. The only RAF officer ranks that never really worked for me were the two most junior; Flying Officer and Pilot Officer - because they really do seem too specific to air-crew roles; the use of "officer" is a bit clunky too. Something like Sub-Lieutenant and Ensign or Subaltern and Second Sunbaltern might have worked better (+/- other prefixes like "Flight-" or "Air-"). Anyway, that's a tangential point.

The same basic principle of creating a new tradition with new terminology would certainly be one option that could be applied to a space force. (Truth be told, I still like the naval-type approach - there's something magnificent about the idea of exploring and "sailing the cosmos"...!! smilies-02 )

Justin,
You're absolutely right, the Dan Dare strip was a very good example of a particularly British "take" on a space fleet, even though it was essentially in international organisation. Sir Hubert Guest was very "RAF" - although I seem to recall that "Controller of the Space Fleet" was his correct title...? I'll check!

Hampson was indeed pretty thorough in his creation - I have a lot of source material but I don't think I ever managed to put together a complete and definitive rank structure from what I had. I do recall that there were some pretty impressive dress/mess uniforms in some of the episodes!

It's not quite how I'd picture an "offcial" British Ministry of Defence armed Space Fleet but I agree it has some resonances! smilies-01
Medic_in_Uniform
ADMINISTRATOR
ADMINISTRATOR
 
Posts: 455
Joined: Sun Jan 07, 2007 7:33 pm

Unread postby Miklós Lovász » Sat Apr 14, 2007 12:01 pm

Dear lordziba,

You wrote: "Another thing, entire idea of independent rank system for Starfighter/small craft corps is ... Stupid." So, indeed, you have called my ideas stupid. Anyway, obviously your mastery of the English language is far form perfect, therefore I'm not going to continue this debate. I'm only going to ask you to refrain ever using this or any other offensive terms. If you have any doubt about the nature of a term, please consult a dictionary.
User avatar
Miklós Lovász
ADMINISTRATOR
ADMINISTRATOR
 
Posts: 434
Joined: Mon Mar 24, 2003 2:11 pm
Location: Bucharest, Romania

Unread postby Miklós Lovász » Sat Apr 14, 2007 12:07 pm

I believe we should consider two distinct periods:
a. near future (up to 50-100 years ahead)
b. far future (over 100 years ahead).

In the near future obviously we'll have small craft, exploring the Solar System. Given that today most space agencies are staffed mostly with AF personnel, I believe they will use AF style ranks, if an independent space force (agency) will be established.

In the far future however, we should consider the posibility of expansion and colonisation, with a shift of focus from Earth-bound (military) affairs to space-bound (military) affairs. At this point, we should also consider, whether there will be a military branch or only a civilian space faring institution. I believe, that except the case when we meet an alien and aggressive civilisation, we won't need a military arm. So it's more likely to have a civilian agency with a law enforcement unit, rather than a space navy (or something akin to this).

Therefore, I believe we should explore both the possibilities of a civilian ranking system (with a law enforcement component) as well as a military system.
User avatar
Miklós Lovász
ADMINISTRATOR
ADMINISTRATOR
 
Posts: 434
Joined: Mon Mar 24, 2003 2:11 pm
Location: Bucharest, Romania

Unread postby lordziba » Sat Apr 14, 2007 10:03 pm

never mind!
lordziba
REDACTOR
REDACTOR
 
Posts: 365
Joined: Mon Feb 09, 2004 7:42 am
Location: was Ukraine now the United States

Unread postby dharma negara » Sun Apr 15, 2007 5:14 am

and don't forget the diplomatic corps and attaché.
User avatar
dharma negara
VISITOR
VISITOR
 
Posts: 58
Joined: Fri Mar 10, 2006 4:41 pm
Location: jawa tengah, indonesia

Unread postby Nila MadhaVa » Fri May 04, 2007 8:16 am

i have been thinking about this question for a while and i think we should consider two important point when discussing the HYPOTHETICAL evolution/creation of a space force.

firstly, is this force evolved form a parent unit, ie the USAF from the USAAF which was a part of the army. this is important becouse throughout history, units or forces formed from parts of another parent unit, tend to follow their rank titles and insignia, or are influenced by them to a very large degree. the other trend as in the RAF where new rank titles and insignia are created, we still face the problem faced by the brits where the admirals in the RAN didnt want "Admiral" to be part of the new air officer titles. each of these scenarios are possible.

and secondly, i know it is a very romantic picture, sailing across the heavens, and a fleet should have and admiral etc, but rank titles only show a persons position in the military hierarchy. a space force doesnt HAVE to be modeled on the navy, it would be made to suit the role it would play, organizationaly, and the actual rank titles themselves dont nesseceraly have much to do with it, because a major general can command a squadron of space ships, if trained to do so. his or her rank title doesnt matter, only to show their position in regards to those around them.

i think that such a space force would either evolve from the air force (most air forces would probably be in control of small spacecraft as they came into general use) or be created indipendently, thus having no relationship with the navy of the time...then again they could create a Star Fleet and have admirals and commodores etc, but how would the navy feel about that?

i think we need to remember that it is more likely for such a force to evolve over a long period of time before it was reqired to make it a seperate arm of service, with its own independent command structure and headquarters etc. therefore i think that we would probably see alot of influence in the rank titles and insignia of the new service from the old one.
We cannot choose the hour of our death. But we can choose what to do with the time we are given.
Nila MadhaVa
VISITOR
VISITOR
 
Posts: 94
Joined: Sun Oct 05, 2003 2:39 pm

Try this...

Unread postby Medic_in_Uniform » Sat Aug 04, 2007 6:31 pm

OK, so there's nothing massively new here but I thought some of you might like to see it anyway. It's got bits stolen from NASA, the RAF and the USN.

These insignia could be associated with traditional naval rank titles but I've given some alternative, non-military, role descriptions/titles in this instance - think of this as a really BIG uniformed NASA with a primarily exploratory, scientific and space transportation role, rather than the USN in space!

The top end of the rank structure (the flag rank equivalents) may appear to be a bit "top heavy" but I envisage that there would actually be far fewer individual roles at each level than there might be in a comparable naval structure so that, in fact, the senior administrative grades would actually consist of a relatively small group of officers.

Enjoy...!

smilies-01

Image
Medic_in_Uniform
ADMINISTRATOR
ADMINISTRATOR
 
Posts: 455
Joined: Sun Jan 07, 2007 7:33 pm

Unread postby Medic_in_Uniform » Sun Aug 05, 2007 2:43 am

...and simplified rank patches for working dress, flight suits, EVA suits, etc...

Image
Medic_in_Uniform
ADMINISTRATOR
ADMINISTRATOR
 
Posts: 455
Joined: Sun Jan 07, 2007 7:33 pm

Unread postby Miklós Lovász » Mon Aug 06, 2007 9:24 am

Not bad ... not bad at all smilies-15
However, I would suggest that you change the cap insignia to something less conspicuously American in origin ... unless you intended this to be the insignia of the US Space Administration. Perhaps if you changed a bit the eagle and dispensed with the shield ...
Also, I would think about modifying the rank titles adn creating a separate badge for appointments. In my opinion it could be someting like this:

Director General
Senior Director
Director
Deputy Director
Assistant Director

Chief Administrator/Chief Pilot/Chief Specialist
Senior Administrator/Senior Pilot/Senior Specialist
Administrator/Pilot 1st Class/Specialist 1st Class

Deputy Administrator/Pilot 2nd Class/Specialist 2nd Class
Assistant Administrator/Pilot 3rd Class/Specialist 3rd Class
Junior Administrator/Junior Pilot/Junior Specialist

Appointments:

Chairman, Space Agency
Deputy Chairman
Head of Department
Deputy Head of Dept
Section Chief
Deputy Section Chief

Flight Commander
First Officer
Second Officer/Navigator/Chief Communication Officer/Chief Engineering Officer/Chief Administrative Officer
Mission Specialist (from senior to junior)/Communications Officer/Engineering Officer/Administrative Officer (from senior to junior)
User avatar
Miklós Lovász
ADMINISTRATOR
ADMINISTRATOR
 
Posts: 434
Joined: Mon Mar 24, 2003 2:11 pm
Location: Bucharest, Romania

Unread postby lordziba » Mon Aug 06, 2007 5:32 pm

Interesting, what about equalent of NCO's, and perhabs security arm? There at least two animes sort of deal with ranked civillian space exploration. One Stratos 4, or Comet Busters, the other-- the space organization in Planetes (though its rather corporate arm).

Zibster smilies-10 !
lordziba
REDACTOR
REDACTOR
 
Posts: 365
Joined: Mon Feb 09, 2004 7:42 am
Location: was Ukraine now the United States

Unread postby Medic_in_Uniform » Mon Aug 06, 2007 11:00 pm

Hi Guys,

Yeah, the concept was indeed deliberately American and based on a rather expanded NASA-type organisation (hence the very deliberate visual references!). The oak leaves on the peaks of the caps are just the US Navy style but in silver and if I took the Eagle and shield away I'd end up with what is more-or-less the key elements of the current NASA logo. I did say that I'd "borrowed" quite a lot! smilies-01

What I was thinking of was a an agency that generally put out relatively small crews, even on bigger transport vessels (think of something like the Nostromo from Alien) as well as smaller science vessels - although those may actually have slightly bigger crews because of the need for the skills of more mission specialists. The crew would all be fairly highly-trained (even the newbie junior specialists), hence the lack of enlisted "ranks" in the scheme. Thinking about it, I suppose they're actually more like role markings than true rank markings in that respect.

A more international look wouldn't be hard to develop - a "UN" based organisation would be pretty easy to conjecture although that has been done before in many Sci-Fi novels, movies and TV shows.

I've got a lot of VERY "naval" style stuff I did for the fictional United Nations Naval Service from David Feintuch's "Seafort" Saga. The early versions of my drawings are all online at the Seafort forum (click on the forum link at www . nickseafort . com). Go to the "General UNNS Topics" section and look for the "Uniforms" thread. I've actually improved and updated a lot of the designs since I posted those but never got around to putting the updates online. Again, this work borrows heavily from established tradition - but that was also deliberate as the UNNS in the books has a direct link back to the British Royal Navy - something that is explained in the stories. There are also pretty copious notes on the designs on the forum so it's easier to direct you there than it is to re-post it all here!
Medic_in_Uniform
ADMINISTRATOR
ADMINISTRATOR
 
Posts: 455
Joined: Sun Jan 07, 2007 7:33 pm

Unread postby Miklós Lovász » Tue Aug 07, 2007 8:24 am

I see ... well, if you put it this way, it sure makes sense. However, you still haven't said what you think about the ideea of separate rank and appointment insignia ...
User avatar
Miklós Lovász
ADMINISTRATOR
ADMINISTRATOR
 
Posts: 434
Joined: Mon Mar 24, 2003 2:11 pm
Location: Bucharest, Romania

Unread postby P. Morfe » Tue Aug 07, 2007 9:17 pm

Medic in Uniform,

You're work is awesome. A week ago I saw your UNNS work and I've saved all of it onto my computer for safe keeping; it's really great. Your NASA ranks are inspiring as well and I've saved them, too. smilies-05 Keep making more. I really enjoy looking at it.

And if you have any more gems out there, post them or PM them to me. smilies-15
P. Morfe
VISITOR
VISITOR
 
Posts: 8
Joined: Sun May 20, 2007 9:05 pm
Location: New Jersey, USA

Unread postby Medic_in_Uniform » Wed Aug 08, 2007 6:42 am

P.Morfe - you're too kind! smilies-08


However, you still haven't said what you think about the idea of separate rank and appointment insignia ...


A lot of those roles sound like non-uniform "suits" to me...! smilies-01

Seriously, yes, I'm interested - but what exactly did you have in mind? A completely separate insignia for each appointment or a system of rank insignia PLUS something akin to the current USN badges for submarines, surface warfare, etc...?
Medic_in_Uniform
ADMINISTRATOR
ADMINISTRATOR
 
Posts: 455
Joined: Sun Jan 07, 2007 7:33 pm

Unread postby Miklós Lovász » Wed Aug 08, 2007 10:19 am

Well, I could see two versions: one a separate system of appointment insigniae, like the submariners, destroyers, etc carry, worn on the breast, probably and another one, with insignia added to the rank insignia. For example: Senior Administrator, Deputy Section Chief would have 2 and 1/2 silver stripes plus a coloured device above them.

As to the specialty colours I would suggest something like this:

Chairman, Space Agency and Deputy Chairman - gold
Head of Department through Deputy Section Chief - silver
Flight Commander - all red Agency shield with gold outline (worn only during appointment)
First Officer - all red Agency shield with silver outline (idem)
Navigation - red
Communication - light blue
Engineering - Black
Administrative - violet
Security - green
Science - orange
Medical - cherry red

As insignia ... I have no idea yet, but since you're way better than me at this kind of stuff, I'm sure you will come up with something perfect, as usual smilies-15

Btw, regarding the shoulder insignia: why have you used horizontal bars for O-1 and O-2? Why not vertical bars, one-and-a-half bars and one bar, respectively?
User avatar
Miklós Lovász
ADMINISTRATOR
ADMINISTRATOR
 
Posts: 434
Joined: Mon Mar 24, 2003 2:11 pm
Location: Bucharest, Romania

Unread postby Medic_in_Uniform » Sat Aug 11, 2007 12:00 pm

The bars on the patches for the junior grades were something I played with quite a bit. I'll take you through the logic of the development process:

I started off with all vertical bars and paralleled the shoulder boards exactly with a single "thick" bar for the JMS and one "thick" and one thin for the MS(2) grades respectively and two "thick" bars for MS(1). The only problem with this was that the asymmetric nature of the one-thick-one-thin somehow just didn't look right so I tried doing two thin bars together and also changing the JMS insignia to a single thin bar but that didn't quite work either!

I then tried putting the bars horizontally so that the looked more like the cuff-stripes and went back to one-thin-over-one-thick which looked OK but it also dawned on me that once the bars for MS(2) were horizontal, that alone was probably sufficiently different to the vertical bars for MS(1) so I just left them as two thick bars! Does that make sense?

I've actually got a few modified ideas that I want to try so, when I've drawn them, I'll post them up here!

smilies-01
Medic_in_Uniform
ADMINISTRATOR
ADMINISTRATOR
 
Posts: 455
Joined: Sun Jan 07, 2007 7:33 pm

Unread postby Miklós Lovász » Sat Aug 11, 2007 2:58 pm

I presume these patches are meant to be worn on the chest or sleeve, not on the shoulder, correct? In this case, I can see the logic, except one thing: what is the significant difference between JMS/MS-2 and MS-1? I could imagine JMS beeing on some kind of "probation period", "not confirmed status" or something alike, but what about MS-2? The same thing? Somtheing like midhsipman and ensign? If only JMS is significantly different from the other ranks, perhaps you could change MS-2 to one vertical bar and have JMS remain with one horizontal bar, or, if there is no significant difference at all, let JMS have one narrov or hollowed out vertical bar.

How about my other idea? With the combined rank and appointment insignia?
User avatar
Miklós Lovász
ADMINISTRATOR
ADMINISTRATOR
 
Posts: 434
Joined: Mon Mar 24, 2003 2:11 pm
Location: Bucharest, Romania

Unread postby Medic_in_Uniform » Sun Aug 12, 2007 3:23 pm

Yeah, I guess either chest or sleeve patch, depending on the type of kit being worn. I'm still playing with the patches for the junior grades and I think you may well have a good point; the JMS was intended to be a sort of post-training "intern" role so maybe that's the only one that needs to be horizontal. I quite like the idea of two vertical bars for MS(1) and a single vertical bar for MS(2) and a a single horizontal bar for JMS but what I was thinking of doing was to actually use ALL horizontal bars for these grades and move up through one, one+half, two and then move to vertical bars for the senior grades.

I take your point about the appointment badges and, for another creation, I'd agree but that wasn't quite what I had in mind for this particular organisation. I guess the insignia are as much about the individual's ROLE rather than for a substantive RANK that they would carry with them at all times. In that respect, it's intended to be much less military. I didn't really imagine a Star Trek-type "Starfleet" when I started developing this so I wasn't really thinking of full-on security and tactical divisions, and so on.

What would work would be something that would, say, differentiate the flight crew from the other mission specialists aboard a given vessel - in that respect I was thinking of something like the RAF's full pair of double "wings" for qualified pilots and single "wings" with some form of specialty emblems for the other crew members (engineering, medical, sciences and so on).

I'll have a think and post some drawings when I've done them!
smilies-01
Medic_in_Uniform
ADMINISTRATOR
ADMINISTRATOR
 
Posts: 455
Joined: Sun Jan 07, 2007 7:33 pm

Unread postby Miklós Lovász » Sun Aug 12, 2007 3:43 pm

Well, what I had in mind is that in every governamental organisation that uses uniforms there is a distinction between rank and appointment, so I think that it would be a goog thing to differentiate here too. Also, you were using "mission specialist", "pilot", etc for the lesser roles and "director" etc for the higher roles. That would imply that either the lesser role administrative, medical, etc personnel have no uniforms/rank insginia, which would be bad for their morale or that they bear the same uniforms and rank designations, which is bad for the morale of the flyboys and not very logical, either. That's the reason I would advocate at least some differences in every insignia.

On other hand, distinguishing between rank and appointment has the additional benefit of flexibility - e.g. one O-3 can have a series of different roles without raising or falling in rank(just like in a military organisation), which is beneficial to morale and makes ones carrier path a lot more clearly cut.

It just hit me: how about using the Agency logo, with the colour-code I mentioned in a previous post but inscribed in a geometrical figure? Like, junior level in a triangle, intermediate level in a diamond, senior level in a double circlet, management level in oak leaves.
User avatar
Miklós Lovász
ADMINISTRATOR
ADMINISTRATOR
 
Posts: 434
Joined: Mon Mar 24, 2003 2:11 pm
Location: Bucharest, Romania

Unread postby P. Morfe » Tue Aug 14, 2007 1:07 am

Hmmm, that is an interesting dilemma. I think I agree with you there. JMS and MS2 are the only horizontal ranks, and although I understood it immediately when I saw it and thought it was a novel idea, it doesn't fit well with the others. In addition, telling the horizontal and vertical bars apart could become problematic. I think JMS should be a vertical bar and MS2 should be a vertical bar. Perhaps JMS should be gold or black, as a narrow bar might be difficult to distinguish from a thick bar. Then again, if JMS and MS2 are similar ranks it might not really matter if their insignia are similar; in the US miltary the 2LT and 1LT ranks could easily be mistaken for each other at a distance, and yet since both are relatively similar ranks and have the same title it doesn't make much of a difference.

My vote goes to a black (or a different color) vertical bar for JMS and a single vertical bar for MS2. That or a narrow bar for JMS and a thick bar for MS2.
P. Morfe
VISITOR
VISITOR
 
Posts: 8
Joined: Sun May 20, 2007 9:05 pm
Location: New Jersey, USA

Unread postby Medic_in_Uniform » Sun Aug 19, 2007 5:10 pm

OK, guys - here's where I've got to. These are some more high-res images of the stuff you've already seen - but there are some subtle changes too. I take your points about the horizontal vs. vertical bars. I've modified them slightly but I'm still keeping them (for now at least - I'm still playing with these).

This is the evolution of the rank patches as it currently stands:
Image

These are the directorate grades in hi-res:
Image

These are the senior grades in hi-res (with button and cap-badge details):
Image

Finally, these are the junior grades in hi-res:
Image

I've also put together some "wings" for various roles too. This is by no means exhaustive and I may add more later if I have time - but hopefully you get the general idea.
Image

As a final bonus, I've also done some quick uniform sketches - these will almost certainly be refined later but I thought you might like to see 'em anyway! I don't envision mission/ship/base patches appearing on the service dress but I'm pretty certain they would work on the working jacket and the blue flight suit.

Enjoy! smilies-01

Image

I also tried removing the old-fashioned button fastenings from the blue service dress uniform to see if I could get a sleeker and subtly more futuristic look. It's certainly un-cluttered (!) but I actually kinda like it.

Image
Medic_in_Uniform
ADMINISTRATOR
ADMINISTRATOR
 
Posts: 455
Joined: Sun Jan 07, 2007 7:33 pm

Unread postby P. Morfe » Sun Aug 19, 2007 6:22 pm

Excellent work as always. smilies-05
P. Morfe
VISITOR
VISITOR
 
Posts: 8
Joined: Sun May 20, 2007 9:05 pm
Location: New Jersey, USA

Advertisement

Email Converter - our sponsor

Next

Return to HYPOTHETICAL RANKS

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Google Adsense [Bot] and 1 guest

cron

Search

User Menu