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HYPOTHETICAL RANKS

World government's military ranks and insignia?

Dealing primarily with contemporary and historical Earth nations. (Science-fiction oriented rank systems, such as Star Trek, Starship Troopers, etc.), should be placed in FICTIVE Rank Insignia.

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World government's military ranks and insignia?

Unread postby Cyberwarrior » Wed Feb 24, 2010 2:43 am

If a world government is ever instaured, with a single global Armed Forces Command, what would you think the ranks and insignia of the Armed Forces would look like?

I have an idea of it. It's actually very simple, and was made in order to make it easily recognizable for everyone without national symbols on them. Every soldier would wear insignia on shoulderboards, plus a patch on the right arm for privates, NCOs and WOs and stripes on both forearms for COs. Recruits would wear plain shoulderboards and no sleeve insignia.

Army

Enlisted ranks:
Image

Warrant officer ranks:
Image

Officer ranks:
Image

Officers sleeve insignia:
Image

Navy

Enlisted ranks:
Image

Warrant officer ranks:
Image

Officer ranks:
Image

Officers sleeve insignia:
Image

Air Force

Enlisted ranks:
Image

Warrant officer ranks:
Image

Officer ranks:
Image

Officers sleeve insignia:
Image

Space Fleet

Enlisted ranks:
Image

Warrant officer ranks:
Image

Officer ranks:
Image

Officers sleeve insignia:
Image
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Unread postby ChrisWI » Wed Feb 24, 2010 11:33 am

Very interesting concept and I like how you blended various forms of national insignia into a "worldly" version.
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Unread postby NJSMITTY » Wed Feb 24, 2010 10:17 pm

Thanks! I really like your ideas. I think naval style insignia are probably well known around the world. Look at Canadian insignia. The United Nations could use these insignia if they ever established a dedicated UN peacekeeping force
My only criticism, and please it's only my opinion, I'm not wild about the warrant grades. They seem clearly connected to the NCO's. rather than the commissioned officers as US warrants are yet there are more than enough NCO grades.
Again Thanks
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Unread postby Cyberwarrior » Thu Feb 25, 2010 12:27 am

The idea of using a broad chevron as insignia for WOs is not new - I've got inspiration from the Finnish Army WO insignia. I've decided to use this to indicate that WOs are ranked above NCOs, but below COs, which use stripes as insignia.

As for the rank of Sergeant Major of each force (Master Chief Petty Officer of the Navy in Navy), I've thought about them being in reduced numbers, whose function would be similar to the SMA/SMAF/MCPON in modern US Armed Forces: serving basically as spokespeople to address the issues of enlisted soldiers to their force's highest positions.

About other NCO ranks... maybe the Command Sergeant Major (Command Master Chief Petty Officer in the Navy) could be removed. What do you think?

Tks
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Unread postby Miklós Lovász » Thu Feb 25, 2010 4:48 pm

We had a similar debate about a hypothetical space force, which you can find here:

http://forum.uniforminsignia.org/viewtopic.php?t=5363

The point is that any such military organisation would have to be neutral in appearence (unless, of course, the WG is a veiled form of one nations domination of the entire world). Therefore I think neutral system would be perhaps more desirable instead of one with such a rather pronounced US-Canadian flavour.

As to the number of NCO ranks, I think that this "highest NCO of a certain branch" is a very US thing, even if it now seems to have caught on with a number of military forces. under these circumstances I doubt that a WG would use it.

Just a thought ...
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Unread postby NJSMITTY » Thu Feb 25, 2010 6:47 pm

I just want to add my thoughts on the NCO grades. I kind of like the Japanese or German(wwII ) system where they have a number of grades for the rank and file before you get to the NCO's. And not so many high level Sergeants Major of this or that.
The British have a good system, also with two grades of junior NCO two grades of senior NCO and two grades of warrent officer. With this number of NCO's the've produced an Army that is held in high esteem.
I even prefer the U.S. system ,the one we had just prior to wwII not the present one.
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Unread postby Cyberwarrior » Thu Feb 25, 2010 9:23 pm

Well, with a reduction in the number of private and NCO ranks, we would probably have a rank system like this for enlisted people:

Image

I haven´t got time at the moment for changing the ranks of all forces; however, by looking at this, you should have an idea about how would they look.

Tks!
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Unread postby lordziba » Fri Feb 26, 2010 7:36 am

Are not they look like new Ukrainian Ranks?
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Unread postby Cyberwarrior » Fri Feb 26, 2010 3:12 pm

Yes, they somewhat look like the Ukrainian army insignia... But that wasn´t my intention. I sought to create easily recognized insignia, but I tried to avoid that kind of thing... Let´s see what can be done from here!

Tks
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great work

Unread postby NJSMITTY » Sat Feb 27, 2010 10:05 pm

Yes, I think this is better. Do you think this is an improvement or do you think it is too limiting.
I would like to make a couple points. number one, if the straight stripes on the shoulder or sleeve indicate commissioned officers than chevrons should be the symbol for the non commissioned officer. Thus one chevron should be vice corporal or lance corporal.
You could distinguish grades of private by diagonal stripes. Sort of a half chevron?
Next, I want to ask would we want to distinguish between the Sergeant Major performing the duty of senior NCO of a battalion and an NCO of the same grade performing staff,technical or administrative duties? The same question could be asked for the Company first sergeant or sergeant major.
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Unread postby Cyberwarrior » Sat Feb 27, 2010 11:09 pm

Well, actually less NCO ranks make the NCO structure less vertical, it could work better than the US standard... I didn´t think of that when I raised the hypothesis on the opening of the topic. smilies-05

I really appreciated your idea of a diagonal stripe for privates. Like you proposed, one chevron becomes Lance Corporal. The rest remains the same.

Image

As for distinction between Sgt Maj (leader NCO of battalion) and Sgt Maj performing administrative duties... well, I haven´t thought about it, but I can affirm that each soldier would have an insignia to distinguish specialty (e. g.: two crossed rifles = infantry; two crossed cannons with some cannon balls = artillery; rod of Asclepius = health; and so on, I haven´t thought about distinctive insignia for every specialty yet, new ideas are welcome). Maybe those insignia would be worn on the uniform collar.

Tks!
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Unread postby Cyberwarrior » Tue Mar 02, 2010 1:04 am

Here are the images for the reduced private and NCO structure for the other forces:

Air Force:
Image

Navy:
Image

Space Fleet:
Image
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Unread postby Medic_in_Uniform » Wed Mar 03, 2010 5:04 pm

My first take on this - using the developing the themes already suggested.


Gold for all ranks (well, the formal insignia anyway). All stripes and chevrons are derived from two standard widths of gold lace.

Shoulder insignia only for all grades.

Enlisted / NCOs = Chevrons.
Officers = Stripes.
General / Flag Ranks = Stars.


The warrant grades serve a specialist function but bridge the gap between the UK / Commonwealth system and the US system. W-1 may be junior specialists or may serve a role similar to the UK structure. W-2 and W-3 are progressively more senior specialists; W-2 would equate to roughly O-1 to O-3. W-4 are very senior specialists with a management role and would be regarded as equivalent to O-4/5 (hence the peak decoration). Further progression to W-4 is a highly regarded career pathway for senior enlisted staff who have reached W-1.


Each service has an appointed Chief of Staff with unique insignia but they retain their substantive rank of General or Admiral and only retain the insignia for the duration of their tenure of office.


Image
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Unread postby Cyberwarrior » Wed Mar 03, 2010 8:09 pm

Nice job, as always, Medic! smilies-15

Maybe you don´t know me, because my membership is recent, but I´ve been watching this forum for the last months, and I can say your insignia drawings are awesome!

You actually made a great job with this one - it reflected all I was thinking about WG ranks, plus the ideas posted by other members.

Thanks for collaborating! smilies-02
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Unread postby Medic_in_Uniform » Thu Mar 04, 2010 1:35 pm

Hey - no problem. It's always kinda fun!

Just a first pass at a service dress for these organizations. The idea is that, being a world government, this is very egalitarian structure so all grades wear basically the same uniform and all services have basically the same design apart from their designated colors.

The small differences are:
Commissioned and Warrant Officers have gold cap straps and wear embroidered/bullion cap and lapel badges (+/- peak decoration, according to rank); enlisted and NCOs wear black cap straps and have cast metal cap and lapel badges with enamel detail bur these are of similar sizes and worn in the same positions. All services wear standard gilt buttons.

The only key differences are the rank markings, as outlined above!

smilies-01


Image


I'm not going to get into branch or unit insignia but it did occur to me that maybe you should consider a fifth service and have an independent uniformed medical service (along the lines of those established by South Africa and some European countries) which would then serve alongside each of the other services...?

EDIT:

Just to add an updated version of the enlisted / NCO insignia with an alternative version of the E-7 Sgt-Major / Master CPO insignia - which I think I prefer. Also a bit more info about rank titles for each service.

Image
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Unread postby Cyberwarrior » Thu Mar 04, 2010 8:30 pm

Your idea of creating an independent medical service as a 5th branch of the Earth's Armed Forces is interesting too. Would it be something like the US Public Health Service Commissioned Corps (PHSCC), with only commissioned officers?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Public_Health_Service_Commissioned_Corps

As for ranks of the new medical corps, I'll post about them when I have time. Maybe something like the US PHSCC mentioned above?

And, I also think the second insignia for Sergeant Major is better than the first one. It's easier to distinguish from Sergeant (I)'s than the first one.

I have to go now. Tks again!
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Unread postby Lee Ragan » Thu Mar 04, 2010 10:05 pm

With one government ruling the entire world, why would they need all these normal armed forces branches? All they need is a worldwide police force to keep the serfs in line. No country on country wars, just enough police to enforce the worldwide laws. And police forces do not need the elaborate rank systems required by the armed forces.
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Unread postby Medic_in_Uniform » Fri Mar 05, 2010 1:46 am

Yeah, I definitely prefer the new E-7 insignia - much more distinctive.

As for the medical service, no the USPHS is not the model I had in mind. Have a look at the websites and Wikipedia entries for the South African Military Health Service and the Composante Médicale of the Belgian Armed Forces.

These are unified military medical services that provide the healthcare needs for ALL the other armed services (in other words there are no other medical personnel within any of the other services). They have their own uniforms and emblems and have a full range of grades from new recruits at basic level through to professionally qualified officers.

Effectively, there are three groups within each service and I suggest the same for this hypothetical Medical Service:

1. Qualified Clinicians - the Medical Officers (Physicians), Veterinary Officers and Dental Officers.
2. Other professionally qualified healthcare staff: Pharmacists, Nurses, Physiotherapists, Radiographers, Paramedics and so on. In the model of grades I outlined above, some would be comissioned officers and some would be warrant officer specialists, perhaps with the more junior staff in some areas holding NCO grades (the exact breakdown is probably to complex to go into now).
3. Other staff: Non-qualified healthcare assistants in the various specialist areas and also general administrative and support / logistics staff. The majority will, I guess, be enlisted / NCOs but, equally, there will still be a need for a number of Warrant Officers and Commissioned officers in the Medical Support role.

Given that I've outlined specific uniform colors for each service, I thought I'd like to stick to that for the Medical Service too - but I wanted something very distinctive and different. I've opted for a very dark burgundy/maroon color with silver-gray shirts for the service dress. I figure that Medical Service personnel on attachment to operational units of the other services will wear the operational uniforms of that service but with clear medical maroon markings instead of whatever would usually be worn.

The Medical Service would, however, have it's own day-to-day working dress that would be worn within major establishments that are predominantly under their own contol (eg. big hospital complexes or major hospital ships) and some sort of operational uniform for, say, EMS units that are run directly by them.

Rank insignia are the same as for all the other services, Including the use of the five-star "Chief of Staff" insignia for the Surgeon-General (always a doctor) but there will likely be far fewer individual posts within the senior grades, as this is, overall, a much smaller service. The one point of note is that officers within group 1, as outlined above, (the qualified clinicians) wear a silver Staff of Aesculapius medical symbol superimposed over their rank insignia, the style of which is derived from the current UN World Health Organisation emblem. The same symbol also appears on the cap and lapel badges for all grades. I other professional groups such as the pharmacists and nurses would also have unique identifying marks of some sort. The stars on the flag ranks are reduced in size to accomodate the medical symbol; senior officers without clinical qualifications (there will be a few) wear standard size stars with no medical symbol.

Image

Image
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Unread postby Medic_in_Uniform » Fri Mar 05, 2010 1:47 am

Lee Ragan wrote:With one government ruling the entire world, why would they need all these normal armed forces branches? All they need is a worldwide police force to keep the serfs in line. No country on country wars, just enough police to enforce the worldwide laws. And police forces do not need the elaborate rank systems required by the armed forces.


Fair point...!

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Unread postby Cyberwarrior » Fri Mar 05, 2010 5:22 am

@Lee Ragan

That´s a nice point for us to discuss.

I think that, even united in a world government, we should be prepared for anything. For instance, an armed rebellion.

Anyway, armed forces around the world play a crucial role in natural disaster relief, by rebuilding and restoring order to places devastated by such disasters.

Among the attributions of Space Fleet soldiers, there would be all attributions of a modern space agency, plus defense against threats from space (and I´m not talking about UFOs here, but asteroids or comets which may enter in a collision course against Earth).
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Unread postby Medic_in_Uniform » Fri Mar 05, 2010 11:15 am

Just to add updated versions of the rank chart (not including the medical service as this chart is up to date) and service dress uniforms for all five services together.

Changes include the new E-7 insignia, improved versions of the cap badges (that match the medical insignia above) and the Chief of Staff insignia as well as some subtle changes to some of the uniform colors.

smilies-01


Image


Image
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Unread postby Medic_in_Uniform » Fri Mar 05, 2010 12:19 pm

Just a thought: not withstanding the fact that these are currently civillian organisations, consider the emblems used by the International Maritime Organisation and the International Civil Aviation Organisation as the possible inspiration for unique emblems for the Naval and Air Services - in the same way that I have based the Medical Service emblem on that of the World Health Organisation:

Image

Equally, something similar could be developed for a hypothetical Space Fleet.

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Unread postby Cyberwarrior » Fri Mar 05, 2010 2:13 pm

As for the police force mentioned by Lee Ragan, I think its members should wear insignia similar to those worn by armed forces, but in silver (on black shoulderboards, maybe?) to distinguish themselves from armed forces members. It would also have a reduced rank structure, more appropriate for a police force than the standard rank structure used by armed forces. And, of course, it wouldn´t be under the Armed Forces Command.

Here is a rank structure I have thought for police force (in parentheses, the Armed Forces equivalent grade):

(E-1) Student Constable - plain shoulderboard
(E-2) Constable - one chevron
(E-3) Detective - two chevrons
(E-4) Sergeant - three chevrons
(E-5, E-6, E-7, WO-1, WO-2, WO-3 and WO-4) no equivalent
(O-1) Lieutenant - one stripe
(O-2) no equivalent
(O-3) Captain - two stripes
(O-4) no equivalent
(O-5) Inspector - three stripes
(O-6) no equivalent
(O-7) Deputy Assistant Commissioner - one star
(O-8) Assistant Commissioner - two stars
(O-9) Deputy Commissioner - three stars
(O-10) Commissioner - four stars
(O-11) no equivalent
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Unread postby lordziba » Fri Mar 05, 2010 6:10 pm

I would change due to presence of the SWAT/Commando units:
Not the UN Police Forces, The UN Internal Peace Keeping Agency:

(E-0) Peace Keeper Trainee
(E-1) Agent or Peace Keeper
(E-2) Senior Agent
(E-3) Corporal
(E-4) Sergeant
(E-5) Team Sergeant
(E-6) Zone Sergeant

The Officer Agents:

Ok first caveat, oh yes, there are equivalents to the Warrant Officers in the police forces. Let say LA PD, there equivalent of W.O. are the skilled armor/SWAT car drivers, helicopter pilots, kennel specialists, and corps of Detectives. So, the warrant officers became specialist officers:

(S.O-1) Detective Level 4/ Specialist Level 4
(S.O-2) Detective Level 3/ Specialist Level 3
(S.O-3) Detective Level 2/ Specialist Level 2
(S.O-4) Detective Level 1/ Specialist Level 1

(O-0) Officer Cadet
(O-1) Lieutenant
(O-2) Captain
(O-3) Chief of Operations
(O-4) Assistant Commander
(O-5) Commander
(O-6) Operations Commander
(O-7) Undercommissioner
(O-8) Assistant Commissioner
(O-9) Deputy Commissioner
(O-10) Commissioner

Ok, those are generic ranks, then if there specialty goes with it, for instance if criminal police it is let say Captain Detective, or Lieutenant Detective. If there SWAT/ Commando unit just Captain or Lieutenant, there also rank of O-3, that rank for the departments strictly not for SWAT. The SWAT would go:

(E-2) Senior Agent
(E-3) Corporal
(E-4) Sergeant
(E-5) Team Sergeant
(O-1) Lieutenant
(O-2) Captain
(O-5) Commander
(O-6) Operations Commander

Then merges into "normal' structure but with rank of O-8. The omitted ranks are the for the station commands.

So, this is my take on the UN generic police force. Zibster, smilies-03 !
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Unread postby Cyberwarrior » Sun Mar 07, 2010 9:16 pm

Zibster, I think all those ranks are too much for a police force. I would do the following:

(E-1) Student Constable - plain shoulderboard
(E-2) Constable - one chevron
(E-3) Detective - two chevrons
(E-4) Sergeant - three chevrons
(E-5) Team Sergeant - three upward and one downward chevrons
(E-6) Zone Sergeant - three upward and two downward chevrons
(E-7) no equivalent
(WO-1) Warrant Officer - one broad chevron
(WO-2) Chief Warrant Officer - one broad chevron and a rectangle
(WO-3 and WO-4) no equivalent
(O-1) Lieutenant - one stripe
(O-2) no equivalent
(O-3) Captain - two stripes
(O-4) no equivalent
(O-5) Inspector - three stripes
(O-6) no equivalent
(O-7) Deputy Assistant Commissioner - one star
(O-8) Assistant Commissioner - two stars
(O-9) Deputy Commissioner - three stars
(O-10) Commissioner - four stars
(O-11) Chief of Police - five stars plus the UN emblem; rank held for the duration of appointment only.
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Unread postby lordziba » Sun Mar 07, 2010 10:46 pm

No, the are not due to the generalization. If read my proposal carefully, you would notice that some ranks are not usable for every department. This rank chart done in mind for the internal affair type troops+police. Look at the SWAT/ Internal Troops. They use only some ranks, the station personnel some other ranks. However, despite being separate branches, there still one common agency, that is why there an appearance of too many ranks.

I hope this clarify a bit, Zibster smilies-02 !
Last edited by lordziba on Mon Mar 08, 2010 1:09 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Unread postby lordziba » Sun Mar 07, 2010 10:59 pm

One more thing, how many times I have to repeated there no actual Warrant Officers in the police type of the forces. Technically every one is a functioning as the Warrant Officer! So, those people who correspond to the rank of the Warrant Officer in a military -- or a skilled officer specialist but without the right to command in the police transformed into the Specialist Officer, since technically even a Corporal in the police is already an officer!

I hope that would take to the notice, furthermore, as far as I remember there up to the 3 levels of the Detectives or Specialist Officers. I took this example from this: http://c1.ac-images.myspacecdn.com/imag ... 3b9088.jpg

Zibster smilies-04 !
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Unread postby Medic_in_Uniform » Mon Mar 08, 2010 12:30 am

Zib, it's Cyberwarrior's hypothetical thread so he can arrange the ranks any way he pleases and, as it *is* hypothetical, it's all up for discussion anyway - so please don't be quite so emphatic about what can and cannot be!

If it were me, I'd arrange things a different way from Cyberwarrior too but perhaps not by much. For me it's all about the structure and the differentiation between the RANK an individual holds and the ROLE the fulfill within the organization. For example, to my mind, the detective ROLE is a distinct branch within the service which would encompass a range of RANKS, working through progressively more senior supervisory and managerial roles within the branch - hence I wouldn't have "detective" as an individual "rank" on its own. Assuming that those officers appointed as detectives would need a reasonale degree of minimum experience within the service then it seems safe to assume that the most junior ranks wouldn't be used within this branch. Similarly, the senior supervisory and managerial roles generally wouldn't necessarily require "star" rank status to be able to fulfill their roles (apartt, perhaps, from the biggest urban areas) so I can therefore piece together a rough idea of the scope of authority needed for officers within what I would think of as a detective branch as a whole.

On a broader note, that also makes me wonder about how such a world-wide police service would function: this is very much a service that needs to be "on the ground in localities, integrated with the pouplation they serve - that's very different management structure from a military top-down command structure. For example, would the detectives be one structure worldwide with branch offices in each city - but reporting to an international senior commander? or, more likely, would each area have it's own management structure, encompassing all branches of the service at a local level - but then co-ordinating via regional and supraregional offices to create a worldwide network? This would seem to be a far more likely - and more workable - solution.

The international-level of the "command" structure (if such it can be called) would then be more about co-ordinating the international network than any true "command" function.

That's MY take on it, anyway!

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Unread postby lordziba » Mon Mar 08, 2010 1:06 am

Ok, if you put this way, ok, sorry! What do I care then. I just was coming from logical point of view. After all, it is to Cyberwarrior to decide what he wants or not! U c, I was coming from the experience of dealing with science-fiction work. Even though, the sci-fi it is a work of imagination there still an element of science or otherwise that would be fantasy. So, coming from this doctrine, there cannot be an empty space per say, and there certain rules. So, as example to create a future or hypothetical modern peace/security/police agency one must look at the current experience of the existing agencies. In my mind (and again, that is strictly from me, Cyberwarrior can whatever to do, as he wishes!!!) everything depends on the society and background, since I deal with sci-fi role-playing games on daily basis. If we would talk, let say about some sort of planetary peace/security/police agency, maybe the rank creation would be different. Maybe the colonists like, let say Roman culture, then the ranks would change even more.

I again, hope I stated MY POSITION clearly smilies-03 !
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Unread postby Cyberwarrior » Mon Mar 08, 2010 5:33 am

Ah! Now I´ve got the point, guys!

Well, the rank system would then become something like this: (the "pay grades" in parentheses are here just to establish an equivalence to military ranks)

(E-1) Policeman-in-training - plain shoulderboard
(E-2) Policeman - one chevron
(E-3) Senior Policeman - two chevrons
(E-4) Sergeant - three chevrons
(E-5) Team Sergeant - three upward and one downward chevrons
(E-6) Zone Sergeant - three upward and two downward chevrons
(E-7) no equivalent
(WO-1) Specialist - one broad chevron
(WO-2) Senior Specialist - one broad chevron and a thin rectangle
(WO-3) Chief Specialist - one broad chevron and two thin rectangles
(WO-4) no equivalent
(O-1) Lieutenant - one stripe
(O-2) no equivalent
(O-3) Captain - two stripes
(O-4) no equivalent
(O-5) Inspector - three stripes
(O-6) no equivalent
(O-7) Deputy Assistant Commissioner - one star
(O-8) Assistant Commissioner - two stars
(O-9) Deputy Commissioner - three stars
(O-10) Commissioner - four stars
(O-11) Chief of Police - five stars plus the UN emblem; rank held for the duration of appointment only.

Well, these are generic ranks. I think they could be adapted well for a global police force.

I don´t discard the possibility of existence of local police forces, like we have today, together with this global force; they could have a rank system similar to this, or not.

Any ideas are welcome, as always; if you want to talk more about military ranks again, feel free to do it.

Tks!
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Unread postby Medic_in_Uniform » Mon Mar 08, 2010 2:20 pm

Zib, that's fair enough - although Sci-Fi wasn't really a key background to this and, to be honest, sci-fi role-playing isn't exactly a concrete base from which to make grand suppositions! Those of us who actually work within large public service organizations (both uniformed and otherwise) have a pretty good idea how these things tend to work too!

To expand upon my concept for this organization, I also meant to add that the role of Warrant Officers (or equivalent "specialist" grades) within such a service would seem to be entirely reasonable: within an army, the core role of a soldier is to fight so a military policing role would rightly be seen as specialist role. Within a police service, however, the basic law-enforcement and investigation role is the core of the duties so therefore *not* really all that specialist! The truly specialist roles that require professional knowledge and skills above and beyond the basic core role might be other things like forensic investigation, vehicle examination, specialist fraud investigation (requiring accountancy skills), psychological profiling and so on. Now, these roles could be provided by non-uniformed civillian support staff but, depending upon the nature of the organisation (and I believe this could apply to our hypothetical international police service), I'm sure there is also room for specialist work like this within a sworn officer role - perhaps by some sort of direct entry professionally qualified route separate to the standard "police" training and career structure.

In the schemes below, I've outlined two parallel grade structures - one for the local regional / area / divisional structures (how big each of those sub-units would or could be is clearly open to debate! States...? Nations...? Continents...?) and another for the overall co-ordinating international structure. There's also the question of how such a service would work with local police services - would it replace (all or some) local services? Would it act like US State Police relative to local county/city police and/or sheriff departments? Would it have a role more like an over-arching federal service like the FBI / US Secret Service / US Marshal Service...? Perhaps, realistically, it would actually need to be some combination of all of the above?

For now, I've used plain silver on blue for the locality grades and gold with silver for the international grades. The international staff-grades and operational agents have gold-silver-gold cap straps that echo the lace of the rank stripes.

Note also that there are no international grades below deputy inspector for the international structure and also the use of warrant-type grades. This is because most of the international grades, even for operational agents, will be specialists of one sort or another. For example, think of the international-level A-1 grade agent relative to a local patrol officer (single silver chevron) as being the equivalent of something like an FBI special agent relative to a rural local county Sheriff's Deputy. Teams of agents would also incorporate the specialist roles described above, especially the forensic / financial / psychological areas.

Remember that, in this system, these grades also overlap the O-4 to O-6 grades; the way I see this is that the O-4 to O-6 staff "officer" grades with "stripes" are involved in international "policing" management and supervision, working to co-ordinate with local services whereas the grades I've described as A-1 to A-4 with WO-type chevrons (+/- bars) are members of operational investigation and/or intervention teams. The A-2 to A-4 grades are roughly equivalent to the staff O-4 to O-6 grades, with the A-4 team leaders reporting to O-7 Staff Superintendents within a specific international operations bureau. (Note that the pattern of bars beneath the wide chevron is slightly different to the standard WO pattern insignia used elsewhere).

The other thing to note is that I imagine many of these international-level staff would usually only wear uniform on formal occasions (especially the operational teams) but it's useful to see the grading system laid out by insignia.


Local grades and insignia:

Image


International grades and insignia:

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Uniforms (following the same basic pattern as all the others):

Image


A word or two about "detectives" - I view this as more a role than a grade in itself. At the local level, the basic "Detective" grade would be equivalent to the E-3 "Senior Constable / Officer" and, when in uniform (rarely, I guess), would wear that grade's insignia. A detective team would be led by a local-level specialist supervisor (senior sergeant II/III) who would equally wear their equivalent grade insignia when in uniform. The officers managing several such teams would likely be a Detective Captain, aided by a Detective Lieutenant with overall executive management of such groups of detectives by an allocated inspector and/or deputy inspector - they would wear plain clothes or uniform as required. The option also exists to have a "Senior Detective" at E-4 grade (Sergeant equivalent) who would retain sergeant-level seniority and authority and who may work as the supervisor of small local teams (in lieu of an E-5 specialist supervisor) or who may be an experienced team mamber on Area or Regional-level specialist teams such as major Homicide / Narcotics / Fraud / Counter-terrorism groups. Team leaders here could be at the E-7 Senior Sergeant (I) grade and overall management / leadership responsibility would likely rest with an allocated Inspector / Chief Inspector grade officer, assisted by more junior officers.

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Unread postby Cyberwarrior » Tue Mar 09, 2010 3:15 am

Nice work again, Medic. I think such system would fit well the needs of a global police force. smilies-02

Now I´m thinking about the Marine Corps. Which do people here think about it? Should it be subordinate to the Navy (like in most countries), sharing ranks and insignia with it, or should it be like the virtually independent USMC, with its own rank structure similar to Army´s?

Tks!
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Unread postby lordziba » Tue Mar 09, 2010 4:07 am

Hi guys. ok, regarding sci-fi or hypothetical ranks, I just wanted to point out that my ideas for the rank system is coming from the real well-proven agencies, not some sort of whim of the imagination. You Medic or Cyberwarrior might disagree, so this is a forum and as matter of fact I am welcome it. Only from the opposing discussions evolving new ideas. BTW, Medic good job as always on the drawings, I could do mine, but that takes time! Next, I have a unique rank system for the Marine Corps. Before I start showing my rank table, one caveat. Yes some of us living in the US, but it is not necessary that the US rank system, especially in Marine/Army should dominated let say the world ranks. However, since the most famous USMC and the biggest it does have some influence on my system:

The Enlisted Rank Table:

E-0. Candidate Marine
E-1. Marine
E-2. Able Marine
E-3. Marine Underchief
E-4. Marine Chief
E-5. Gunnery Chief
E-6. Master Chief
E-7. Master Gunnery Chief
E-8. Primary Marine Chief
E-9. The Primary Marine Chief of Earth Marine Corps

Warrant Officers' List:

W.O.-1. Warrant Officer Level 5
W.O.-2. Warrant Officer Level 4
W.O.-3. Warrant Officer Level 3
W.O.-4. Warrant Officer Level 2
W.O.-5. Warrant Officer Level 1

The Officers' List:

Earth/The US:

O-0. Officer Candidate/ Marine Cadet
O-1. Subaltern/ None
O-2. Junior Lieutenant/ 2nd. Lieutenant
O-3. Lieutenant/ 1st. Lieutenant
O-4. Lieutenant -Major/ Marine Captain
O-5. Major/ Major
O-6. Commandant/ Lieutenant-Colonel
O-7. Colonel-Commandant/ Colonel
O-8. Lieutenant Brigadier/ Brigadier General
O-9. Brigadier/ Major General
O-10. Brigadier Major/ Lieutenant General
O-11. Brigadier Commandant/ Full General
O-12. Brigadier General/ None

Also this is going to look like that: http://c2.ac-images.myspacecdn.com/imag ... 4485bd.jpg

This is MY TAKE on the Earth Government Astromarine Corps, Zibster smilies-02 !
Last edited by lordziba on Tue Mar 09, 2010 7:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Unread postby Cyberwarrior » Tue Mar 09, 2010 4:27 pm

Nice idea, Zib. However, some changes must be made to fit the rank system used by other forces.

(E-1) Marine Recruit
(E-2) Marine
(E-3) Able Marine
(E-4) Marine Chief
(E-5) Gunnery Chief
(E-6) Master Chief
(E-7) Master Gunnery Chief

(W-1) Warrant Officer
(W-2) Senior WO (II)
(W-3) Senior WO (I)
(W-4) Chief Warrant Officer

(O-1) Junior Lieutenant
(O-2) Lieutenant
(O-3) Marine Captain
(O-4) Major
(O-5) Lieutenant-Commandant
(O-6) Commandant
(O-7) Brigadier
(O-8) Major General
(O-9) Lieutenant General
(O-10) General
(O-11) Marine Chief of Staff

As for insignia... I think we could use Medic's pattern, all insignia in gold, worn on red shoulderboards. Those shoulderboards would be worn on navy-blue uniforms.

Tks for collaboration, Zib!

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Unread postby lordziba » Tue Mar 09, 2010 6:10 pm

Again, I am going to be reprimanded by Medic, but in my mind Marine Captain is a big "no-no." You see, even today if there a Marine Captain aboard of the ship, they called a "major," or "major at arms." There is a rule or so that there can be only one captain on the ship. So, I specifically avoided the rank of Marine Captain in order to safe the future confusion. Usually, the substitute is a Lieutenant-Major. That is why there no captain in my marine ranks, interesting, in Germany it is easier, since their land captain rank different from sea one!

Zibster smilies-01 !
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Unread postby Cyberwarrior » Tue Mar 09, 2010 6:55 pm

Ok, good point here; then "Lieutenant Major" would be more appropriate for O-3. The rest remains the same.

Tks again!
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Maybe this

Unread postby NJSMITTY » Tue Mar 16, 2010 6:10 pm

How about Marine Officers having Naval rank titles.Ensign and Sublieutenant platoon leaders. Lieutenant would be Company 2ic, Lieutenant Commander Company CO,Commander Battalion CO, Captain Brigade CO.

Generals would stay Generals. NCO's in the Marines would use Army rank titles Cpl's Sgt's Sgt's Major and Warrant.
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Unread postby Cyberwarrior » Tue Mar 16, 2010 8:34 pm

I´m still more favorable about making an army-like rank system for marines. An exception would be made to the O-3 rank (Lieutenant-Major instead of Captain), for the motive posted by Lordziba.

Tks!
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Unread postby Cyberwarrior » Wed Mar 17, 2010 1:51 pm

As for Marine caps... I thought about using a pattern similar to Navy's, but placing a red stripe over the blue area above the black (privates and NCOs) or gold (WOs and COs) band. It would occupy about 60% of the width of that area.
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Unread postby Medic_in_Uniform » Wed Mar 17, 2010 6:59 pm

Hi guys - I've been playing with these since you first started discussing a Maribe Corps but only just had time to finish and post them now.

I started off trying to go down the route of using a separate distinctive color for the service dress, just like the designs for all the other services I've done so far, and I ended up giving this service a greenish-gray uniform with khaki shirt and tie (which looked not unlike the USMC service dress or the RM Lovat green service dress). It definitely worked - and looks sufficiently different to the Army uniform - but eventually I went with a different concept, as outlined below...


I also worked on the red epaulettes that Cyberwarrior initially described and eventually decided to go with that instead - using the existing Naval Service uniform as the basis for the Marine Corps uniform. I've added a red hat band and red oval backing to the UN lapel badges (for officers - other ranks all wear the same metal lapel insignia) as well as the red epaulettes - all of which distinguish Marines from other members of the Naval Service. The General Officers get red borders to their gold shoulder marks and the stars are outlined in red; all other ranks get red shoulder marks with navy blue edging, carrying the usual standard rank insignia.

You may have a different preference but given that the concept I have developed for the marines is that they exist as an integral part of the Naval Service I have therefore omitted an O-11 rank as there would be no need for a separate Chief of Staff. With this in mind, I imagine a much smaller and more specialist force (more like the RM) that has a very specific role within the Naval Service rather than the much larger "fourth service" typified by the USMC.

I also took the concept a little further and developed a similar (but separate) Marine Corps for the postulated Space Fleet - again, this used the basic uniform for that service but includes the same red markings. Insignia are similar to the Naval Marines but red shoulder marks have gray edging. These troops would untertake much the same role as the terrestrial Naval Marines but the selection and training requirements would necessarily be different and, while there could be the opportunity for transfer and cross-training I figured that their parent services would have sufficient sigificant differences that each would have their own integral Marines unit, rather than drawing Marine forces from an individual Marine Service.

I've stuck with using the standard military ranks, apart from the E-1 and E-2 designations for "Marine" instead of "Private." I can see the argument for a change to the O-3 but I'm inclined to use the established rank titles - the USMC and RM have coped with the anomaly of the differing seniority of Army vs. Navy "Captain" for several centuries so I don't think it's that big an issue. Personally, I think the honorifc of addressing a Marine Captain as "Major" when afloat is just a nice historical tradition, in the same way that guest Naval officers of O-6 rank are sometimes refered to as "Commodore" to differentiate them from the Commanding Officer of the vessel.

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Naval Service Marines:

Image

Image


Space Fleet Solar Marines:

Image

Image
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Unread postby Cobra Kebab » Fri Mar 19, 2010 9:10 am

Excellent! Have you made uniform tempaltes that you use as a basis for drawing your uniforms?
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Unread postby Medic_in_Uniform » Fri Mar 19, 2010 6:47 pm

Hi Cobra - not heard from you in ages! All my artwork is done as vector drawings in either Corel DRAW! or Adobe Illustrator. The hosted files that are linked to from the forum are exported .jpg images but the originals are still in the vector formats and so can be amended very easily, as required - it also means that I can paste in and adapt whole or partial content from previous drawings whenever I need to. Sometimes it does feel a bit like I'm plagiarising myself but I just find it quicker to put together a drawing rather than type out a description or explanation - it's also much clearer for you guys to see what I mean!

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Unread postby lordziba » Sun Mar 21, 2010 3:24 am

This just tinkering regarding the Territorial Troops: http://c4.ac-images.myspacecdn.com/imag ... 2b7d6f.jpg
I hope consider those as militia to the regular troops.

Zibster smilies-03 !
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Unread postby Cyberwarrior » Mon Mar 22, 2010 12:40 am

Hmm... What would be the role of that force? Would it be a "paramilitary" organization, or something like that...?
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Unread postby lordziba » Mon Mar 22, 2010 5:01 am

If in an existence one United Nations Government, there going to be two tier military force. One tier regular professional army very small in number in peace time (could be on rotating principle), and second tier so-called territorial troops. Usually territorial troops are from the native land and act as "national guard" in a peace time or axillary troops in a war time. Polymer or Polymorphic defense means that troops are highly mobile in securing objects despite of air, land, and sea operations. The main task of these troops to provide a secure supply to the active army and act as in immediate substitute in event of military emergencies as an ad-hock frontline troops.

I hope that's answers the question smilies-02 !
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Unread postby Cobra Kebab » Mon Mar 22, 2010 10:30 am

Well thank you Medic, I decided to comment some since you were active and posting drawings. Do you take requests?
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Unread postby Cyberwarrior » Mon Mar 22, 2010 3:59 pm

Well, Zib, let´s see if the insignia I´m posting below are what you had in mind...

Image

Image

Just a thing... I think "Commander Commandant" is a quite weird title. I'd suggest using another title, like "Senior Commander".
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Unread postby lordziba » Mon Mar 22, 2010 6:01 pm

Yes, that is I had in mind, excellent job! I was looking at some Siberian troops, also there is a book "Uniforms of the Armed Forces of Eastern European Countries," where not only let say standing army or state security troops, but something known as territorial civil defense forces, like former GDR or former Communist Romania.

Cheers, Zibster smilies-33 !
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Unread postby Cyberwarrior » Fri Mar 26, 2010 5:36 am

Ok people, now I´m thinking about equivalence between ranks of the WG Armed Forces and modern national Armed Forces. In some countries, ranks would have to be merged to fit our proposed rank system; in some others, ranks would have be split.

I´ve made some equivalence tables between US ranks and proposed WG ranks. It´s noticeable that CO ranks are directly equivalent, but private, NCO and WO aren´t, and there would be need for a lot of rank merges. The USAF, however, presently doesn´t have any WO ranks; new WO ranks would then be filled with the most skilled NCOs.

Image

Image

Image

Image

Image

Image

Image

Image

Image

Tomorrow I´ll post equivalence tables between UK ranks and our proposed system.

Tks!
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Unread postby Cyberwarrior » Sat Mar 27, 2010 12:42 am

Ok, here are the equivalence tables between UK and WG ranks.

Image

Image

Image

Image

Image

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I´ve made the equivalence tables above because most armed forces in the world have a rank system very similar to either US´ or UK´s. If you have any ideas of change, let me know!

Tks! smilies-02
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