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HYPOTHETICAL RANKS

CHALLENGE ! maxi-branched British Armed Forces

Dealing primarily with contemporary and historical Earth nations. (Science-fiction oriented rank systems, such as Star Trek, Starship Troopers, etc.), should be placed in FICTIVE Rank Insignia.

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CHALLENGE ! maxi-branched British Armed Forces

Unread postby marcpasquin » Tue Jan 20, 2015 9:38 pm

A NPEP challenge (No Prize Except Pride) for those who feel like getting their creative juices going.

Background
Most countries with armed forces have the standard division of their armed forces into Air Force, Army and Navy (unless of course they are landlocked and riverless).

A few however complement these with additional services that might represent specialised form of warfare (the US Marine Corps), a suport role (Belgian Medical Service) or a militarised version of a civilian institution (the French Gendarmerie).

The Challenge
Now, since the British empire once had colonies in every parts of the world and with every types of environment and that its armed forces have a history of creating variant insignia for new and auxiliary services (think of the insignia for the WRNS, RNR & RNVR), the challenge is to come up with an original British armed force branch as well as the uniform and insignia that goes with it. Those who don't trust their artistic abilities are still encouraged to participate by giving a written description.

Probably only those types of branches that could mount operations (in the loosest sense of the word) by themselves would make plausible independent services so a partial list of possible branches based on past, current and potential services around the world would be:

- amphibious: sea to land
- air defence: land to air
- airborne: air to land
- Medical: could be subdivided into dental, general practice, nursing and, if you're feeling nasty, chemical and bacteriological warfare research.
- militarised police: barracked and heavily armed police trained along military lines and used to maintain order in trouble spots.
- provost: law enforcement within bases
- Coastal Artillery: shooting at ships from the shore
- cyberwarfare: including malicious hacking & intelligence gathering
- Intendancy: all support branches like catering, transport, personnel, etc...
- Environment Specific Warfare: troops specialised in fighting in environment like Jungle, desert, Mountain, etc..
- Aerospace: Not in the sense of star trek-type space exploration but more along the lines of training astronauts and taking care of defence satellites.
- Nuclear Arsenal: production, maintenance and deployment of nuclear weapons whether in fixed location or mobile ones
- etc....

have fun ! post early, post often
Last edited by marcpasquin on Tue Jan 20, 2015 10:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: CHALLENGE ! maxi-branched British Armed Forces

Unread postby Medic_in_Uniform » Tue Jan 20, 2015 10:12 pm

Stop it! I just don't have the time at the moment...!! smilies-09

smilies-15



That aside, just a few questions:

What sort of time-period did you have in mind...?
Amphibious: wouldn't the RM already cover that...?

A lot of those concepts are very, erm, "un-British" and sound more like the separate branches of the old USSR. To work properly as a concept, I guess they would need a bit of a "back-story" that explained how they came about. The paramilitary police would seem very unlikely given the British approach to policing although I can see how that might have come about in some of the former overseas territories / colonies in an earlier time-period.

A combined Medical Service along the Belgian or South African model could certainly be a plausible historical variation that might have been considered in, say, the 1970s or (more likely) the 80s or 90s (especially as a rationalisation and cost-saving option under some sort of Government defence review). I don't think the International law would take kindly to combining non-combatant medical services with offensive Chem/Bio research though (Geneva Convention and all that...).

A combined Provost Service that merged the RN Regulating Branch (as was), the RMP, and the RAF Police would potentially be another plausible possibility, probably for the same cost-saving reasons (!).

As for Cyber and Space Defence... !! smilies-16

It's an interesting challenge! smilies-15
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Re: CHALLENGE ! maxi-branched British Armed Forces

Unread postby SFMRAS » Wed Jan 21, 2015 12:16 am

- amphibious: sea to land
H. Majesty's (Royal) Colonial (Maritime) Forces/Service to the rescue!
[Cockney]
Proper British Gentlemen leading those funny foreigners in support of H. Majesty's Marine Forces! Give some pips and maybe a crown to some of the better foreign chaps! Make 'em feel useful.


- air defence: land to air
Royal (Home) Air Guard, o'course! Can't let those daffy raffies get all the glory! Now that the huns were put to route a second time, Comrade Stalin may want to blitz London like the jerries!

- airborne: air to land
RAF Parachute Corps, old chap! Jolly good effort 'gainst the jerries! Bloody good show! Bloody good!

- Medical: could be subdivided into dental, general practice, nursing and, if you're feeling nasty, chemical and bacteriological warfare research.
My good chap, no proper child of Britannia would delve is such sneaky business as chemical and biological rubbish! How unsporting!
Now counter-chemical is a whole new kettle of fish ....

- militarised police: barracked and heavily armed police trained along military lines and used to maintain order in trouble spots.
Whuz this alla 'bout? Like the Frogs?! Well ... maybe in the colonies ...

- Coastal Artillery: shooting at ships from the shore
The Royal Home Sea Guard'll wallop those jerries should they want a round three! Or Comrade Stalin!

- Environment Specific Warfare: troops specialised in fighting in environment like Jungle, desert, Mountain, etc..
H. Majesty's Roy'l Rang'rs to the rescue! Jungle Ranger! Mountain Rangers! Forest Rangers ... wait. smilies-24
[/Cockney]

Honestly, while I could see some of these services coming into being, at least within the time frame of the Empire or the Cold War, the rest have more of a regimental feel, as opposed to a service.
Actually, now that I think about it, the creation of H. Majesty's Royal Special Forces would be a good bet, at least after WWII. SAS, SBS, and other elite or 'elite' units getting merged into a single force might be economically justified, although the individual forces they were culled from might be less than pleased.

Off to look for my insignia files. That way anyone who can't draw can at least copy and paste. smilies-01
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Re: CHALLENGE ! maxi-branched British Armed Forces

Unread postby SFMRAS » Wed Jan 21, 2015 12:23 pm

Might as well post this now so I remember,
There is some precedent for a 'gendarme' force in the Commonwealth/Empire: the RCMP and its predecessor(s.)
Also, for the RAF Para Corps, I'm thinking 'proper' (stars and crowns) in RAF colors. A blue star or crown on a black backing, perhaps with senior officers having it on 'composite' 'braid.'
Of course, I get the creative urge when I have to work. smilies-20
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Re: CHALLENGE ! maxi-branched British Armed Forces

Unread postby marcpasquin » Wed Jan 21, 2015 5:40 pm

Medic_in_Uniform wrote:
What sort of time-period did you have in mind...?


idealy the present though this can be extended back a few decades if the branch would function better during the Cold War.

Medic_in_Uniform wrote:Amphibious: wouldn't the RM already cover that...?


yes but their insignia a more or less identical to army ones. One idea I had for a fully independent Royal Marines was for them to have modified RN insignias: crossed antique riffle and saber surmounted by pip (s) or crown for enlisted, squares instead of curls for officers. It could be anything as long as just someone seeing their insignia could tell them apart from the other services.

Medic_in_Uniform wrote:A lot of those concepts are very, erm, "un-British" and sound more like the separate branches of the old USSR. To work properly as a concept, I guess they would need a bit of a "back-story" that explained how they came about. The paramilitary police would seem very unlikely given the British approach to policing although I can see how that might have come about in some of the former overseas territories / colonies in an earlier time-period.


I must admit I took some inspiration from the USSR for some though they were meant to illustrate what I had in mind, not a be all and end all. As you said, a bit of backstory would probably be require though many could simply be a question of a different approach to a real life problem: instead of using soldiers taken from established regiments in Northen Ireland, they could have decided to set up a gendarmerie type organisation train solely for law enforcement and "counter-insurgency".

Medic_in_Uniform wrote:As for Cyber and Space Defence... !! smilies-16


Well, we know which one tickled your fancy, don't we ?
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Re: CHALLENGE ! maxi-branched British Armed Forces

Unread postby Medic_in_Uniform » Thu Jan 22, 2015 1:28 am

Actually, given my background, I really should do the combined Medical Service first (!) but I'd need to think about how that might have actually worked (not to mention the likely political shenaningans around the process of merger and who got what job...!) before ploughing into producing concepts for uniforms and insignia...

My initial thoughts are that this would end up being a bit like the creation of the RAF from the RFC and the RNAS around 1918 --> whose uniform style would be adopted, what would the rank/grade titles be and what sort of insignia should they have...?

If this would have been a truly combined medical service, incorporating medical and dental officers, possibly veterinary officers as well, pharmacists, nursing staff (officers and ORs; registered qualified nurses and auxiliary nursing staff), and all manner of healthcare support professions and technicians (e.g. radiographers, physiotherapists, combat medical techs/medical assistants (and, later, paramedics), operating department practitioners/assistants, as well as maybe it's own integral medical logistics and support branch, then this would have been a not inconsiderable organisation.

I'm thinking some form of basic grade insignia to equate to the established RN/Army (+RM)/RAF officer and OR rank markings and also some means of determining profession/specialty/branch within the combined medical service; this could be colour-based or by separate insignia -- or maybe some combination of both.

The basic core groups that spring to mind are:
1. Medical staff;
2. Dental Staff;
3. Veterinary staff (if included);
4. Pharmacists;
5. Nursing staff and ORs, probably as a specific separate group, distinct from the other healthcare roles;
6. Other healthcare professions (as listed above and possibly expanded from time-to-time as new roles are accredited in civilian practice);
7. Clinical support personnel. This would initially include roles like RN medical assistant and Army combat medical technician which, at the likely time of merger were skilled technical roles but were not recognised for registered healthcare "profession" status in their own right, but which might, later, have been quietly phased out (or granted professional status and moved across) as newer civilian professions, such as paramedic, were phased in. As things move towards the contemporary time-period, the skilled medical technical trades would, I guess, almost all move towards the accredited registered health professional roles and the medical support personnel would simply incorporate a group of generic military healthcare support workers. There's also scope for an entirely separate sub-group incorporating Veterinary support personnel (likely with some form of specialty colour and/or insignia link to the veterinary staff).
8. Non-clinical support personnel, inc. QM, logistics, etc.

For deployed field operations, uniform would just be whatever was the standard operational uniform of the time (that's the easy part), the question is, what would be the colour of the service dress (and/or No1 dress, if such a thing were to be created) and what would the branch colours / insignia be...?

I'm inclined to think that the *most* likely solution would be something like dark blue (used for both RN uniforms and also Army No1) but probably in an open-collar / shirt and tie variant (something like the RM officer blues) but worn by all ranks, possibly with a parade version that included black Sam Browne for officers and white belts for ORs.

As for grade insignia, I think the usual chevrons of Army/RAF type would be the most likely for ORs but would officer insignia use RN/RAF cuff stripes or Army shoulder stars and crowns -- or maybe something completely different...?

I'll have a think...

smilies-02
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Re: CHALLENGE ! maxi-branched British Armed Forces

Unread postby SFMRAS » Sun Feb 01, 2015 2:47 am

This is about 40-50% of what it would look like. I'm basically working with what I've got (most of my dalliances are with insignia I like, so I pick and choose over every countries' services) so bear with me. I don't know if the Parachute (also consists of the RAF Regiment) Corps should/would draw from the RAF, RN, RM, or the Army for accoutrements (gorget patches, visor leaves, cap badge, trade badges etc.) so I'm offering every variable I can think of. Honestly, I'm thinking black and pale blue would be the theme, so that gorgets are black with blue stripe or strip of oak leaves for example, so that's what I'm going with.
I'm thinking RAF uniform, with slight alterations for the Corps. The RAF Eagle would likely get replaced with a parachute based off the various parachute wings, but I'm using this as a starting point.
I'm not sure if the 'Aircrew' ranks would have been carried over ... or abolished if they were, but here they are. Parachute riggers, maybe? Instructors? Omitted due to lack of a source is WO1 and Master Aircrew.
The RAFPC would use army ranks, and I've included both brigadier and brigadier general ranks, but they wouldn't be used simultaneously.
The braid would be worn as follows:
1 Band, Lieutenants.
2 Bands, Captain.
3 Bands, Major and Lt. Colonel.
4 Bands, Colonel and Brigadier.
1 Thick Band, General officers.
The 'composite braid' would be used for certain orders of dress and/or certain time periods.
RAFRPCOF.png

RAFPCOR.png

I don't have a period in mind for the RAFPC, so I've included both the 'Kings' and 'Queen's' crowns.

I'm thinking of an other ranks only Royal Marines Corps of Colonials, basically a subset of the Corps made up of native (non-commando) marines. I'll try to get around to that along with the other services.
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Re: CHALLENGE ! maxi-branched British Armed Forces

Unread postby marcpasquin » Tue Feb 03, 2015 7:15 pm

RMMB-insignias.png


After reading MiU's post, I was inspired to make the insignias for a Royal Military Medical Branch.

Since it would have gathered together personnel from the other 3 services and many sub-branches, I wanted to have elements that were common to all or most or baring commonalities, original ones.

the use of the red cross roundel as part of rank insignias was present in the army medical service of the late 19th and early 20th century as well as with the QANNS until they switched to normal navy insignias. Since members of the later were considered officer, this justify somehow its use by officers of the RMMB despite not having been worn by officers of the RAMC, the naval medical branch or their airforce counterparts.

the colour red used for stripes is meant to recall the use of red "lights" by naval medical officers which seen logical to be extended to the enlisted personnel. The sinuous pattern is both meant to recall the snake of the rod of asclepius as well as preventing them being mistaken for RAF or RN stripes if using low visibility insignias.

The use of crown, crossed medical emblem & baton or their absence is meant to recall the army officer progression but using stripes instead of pips to allow them to show a combination with RN/RAF officer insignias.

I have chosen diagonal stripes for enlisted for the simple reason of not wanting to reuse chevrons since the officers were not using either RN or army style insignias.

Finaly, the rank names are mostly 19th century RN and Army medical titles with a few extrapolated to fill the gaps.
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Re: CHALLENGE ! maxi-branched British Armed Forces

Unread postby Medic_in_Uniform » Tue Feb 17, 2015 2:41 am

I developed these without realising what Marc had already posted -- any similarity is entirely coincidental...! smilies-23

I've also realised that it looks a LOT like the insignia the Canadians are just getting rid of...! Oh well... (!).
smilies-16 smilies-24 smilies-15

OK, my take on a merged UK defence medical service, incorporating all the healthcare elements of the Royal Navy, the Army and the Royal Air Force.

I figure that this would be one single separate military health service, much the ame as the Belgian or South African model. Within the overall "umbrella" of the Royal Defence Medical Services, there would be three main components: the medical service, the nursing service and the dental service.

The medical service would comprise four main groups:
1. the doctors (medical officers);
2. other trained and registered healthcare professionals (some in Officer roles, some in NCO roles -- although potentially with a commissioned career path for all professionally trained healthcare staff);
3. military clinical support staff (i.e. with general military medic training but who have not undertaken or completed recognised training to practice specific statutorily registered healthcare profession);
4. non-clinical medical support staff (officers and ORs).

The nursing service would incorporate all military nursing staff, including all fully-trained and registered nurses and nursing assistants. There would be a commissioned and NCO career path for trained nurses and an alternative NCO career path for nursing assistants.

The dental service would comprise all the dentists (dental officers) and their associated clinical and support staff (although purely non-clinical support staff would now be badged with the overall medical support branch of the medical service).


Inevitably, the politics of such a merger would be rather tricky in the real world -- fortunately, I don't have to deal with that...! This is still a uniformed military service and all personnel would be expected to undergo standard military training for their roles. Just as with the current forces, additional military training to undertake medical roles with commando or airborne forces would be available on a competetive basis.

Operational uniform is relatively easy -- it's just whatever is uniform of the day wherever medical service staff are attached. Formal uniform for the merged service took a bit more working out. As barracks and clinical dress (not to mention formal parade dress) bears no resemblance to operational combat dress it was not felt necessary to be constrained by uniform colour. Inevitably a number of compromises had to be agreed by the merging services although the process also allowed for some innovations through the opportunities for development that arose as the mergers were planned.

The details of the formal uniform (main colour, branch colours, badges, grade titles, etc.) were the subject of much debate. Dark grey was seriously considered as a main colour, in order to give the medical service a unique identity of its own but, in the end (following a number of trials) the final agreement was dark blue. Formal service dress would be a single-breasted four-button, four-pocket tunic with open collar and shirt and tie -- not unlike Army or RAF service dress. Matching trousers (or skirt) and peaked service cap would complete the uniform. This could be worn without a belt for daily wear, with a fabric belt for formal wear and with a Sam Browne belt for parade dress (gold sash for OF-7 to OF-9 for ceremonial wear).

Clinical uniforms and day-to-day dress would include a simplified "working dress" version of the uniform for all branches with plain dark blue trousers (without stripes) and white shirts with pockets and shoulder straps (short sleeve without tie for clinical work; optional long sleeve, with or without tie, for admin).

The formal tunic may be worn with this order of dress if required (with a tie and either no belt or a cloth belt) but the more practical option is a military-pattern sweater with sleeve pen-pockets and shoulder straps. Dark blue would be the standard basic colour but, in keeping with Army tradition for barrack dress, branch-coloured sweaters would be optional: cherry for medical staff, green for dental staff, grey for nursing staff, royal blue for health professions and black for support staff.

Army practice was to restrict the use of coloured sweaters to WO and above but it was agreed that the option would be made available to all grades in the new combined service. Rank for all grades would be worn embroidered on soft shoulder slides. Dark blue would be the basic colour for soft shoulder slides but if a coloured sweater is worn then the slides should match the sweater and coloured backing behind the rank markings would not be required.

Senior officers entitled to wear gorget insignia would be able to wear miniature clip-on versions of these on shirt collars (per established Army practice) when not wearing a tie.

For general ward work, nursing staff would wear navy trousers with white ward tunics (male and female patterns) for nursing staff with silver-grey trim for ORs and dark blue trim for WOs and Officers up to OF-2; officers of OF-3 and above would have the option of dark blue ward tunics with silver-grey trim (although it is anticipated that they are more likely to wear undress white shirts (with or without tie). Rank would be embroidered on silver-grey shoulder slides for ORs and dark blue slides for WOs and Officers. Dental assistants would wear the same pattern of tunics with emerald green trim and shoulder slides. Where appropriate, ORs from the other health professions (e.g. radiographers, physiotherapists) would wear the same tunics with Stewart blue trim and Stewart blue shoulder slides.

A generic RDMS (or RDDS / RDNS) badge would be worn as an embroidered patch above the left breast pocket of the ward/clinical tunic, with the name and role of the individual on the right. The appropriate branch badge would also be worn on the sweaters, on a backing to match the garment. Badges for the other health professions would differ slightly in that they would incorporate the emblem of the individual's profession.

The intention was to have one basic standard format of cap and collar badges for each set of grades (ORs; Warrant Officers and junior Officers; Senior Officers; Flag/General Officers) but which could be adapted for each separate branch / staff group. Additional badges for trades and qualifications would be developed over time. Specific badges such as RAF flight surgeon, flight nurse and ambulance attendant wings would be retained almost unaltered.

For the main branch, the Army's established RAMC medical "dull cherry" colour was retained; the RN's medical scarlet was felt to be not otherwise distinguishable from all the other army units with navy caps and scarlet detailing. Some scarlet details were later added to the dull cherry such as welts and crown piping on caps -- see pics!

For the separate groups that were the health professionals and the non-clinical support personnel, two sub-branches were created within the main Royal Defence Medical Service: the health professionals would wear dull cherry but with Royal (Stewart) blue as their distinguishing colour. Their badges would replace the Staff of Aesculapius with a serpent forming a ring and a separate set of symbols would be created for each profession that would be placed in the centre of the ring. Non-clinical staff would use the standard badge but their distinguishing colour would be black alongside the dull cherry.

Nursing staff would wear dark salmon and silver grey and dental staff would wear the emerald green of the Army's RADC but with highlights of the orange worn by RN dental officers. (Note: I've just spotted small errors in both the chart for the RDDS and the illustration of the dental officer; neither is quite right as what I actually intended was a green lanyard to go with the green cap band and trouser stripes but retaining the RN orange backing behind the rank bars. I'll correct the images at some point).


Rank would essentially be Army / RAF pattern for Other Ranks as this currently applied to the majority of ORs in service; Warrant Officers would be retained in two grades (WO1 and WO2) with the usual Royal Arms for WO1 and the RM/RN usage of Crown & Wreath for all WO2. OR-1 and OR-2 grade personnel would, provisionally, be titled Medical Assistants and the first supervisory grade at OR-3 would, provisionally, be titled Leading Medical Assistant. The term "Private" was felt inappropriate and, while the Army and RAF both have corporals, there was no agreement to also include the use of Lance-Corporal.

This would initially require some clarification as the current RN trade of Medical Assistant is a highly qualified clinical role akin to a multi-role paramedic, but yet not accredited for registered paramedic status (something the UK forces have largely failed to address as UK civilian recognition of extended roles for health professionals has outstripped their military counterparts -- and incorporating parity with equivalent civilian professions and roles would be a core aim of the newly merged defence medical service). An current RN Leading Medical Assistant (OR-3) would therefore actually assimilate to the new service in the rank of Corporal (equivalent to a Leading hand, RN) and initially into the generic cadre of military-trained medics but with the intention of achieving civilian parity and paramedic registration for appropriately trained and experienced staff thereafter. It is initially anticipated that, based on training and experience, the new structure would incorporate all existing Army combat medical technicians (CMT3 to CMT1) and RN medical assistants into a structure for military medics that acknowledges a number of grades of training and skills and some form of incremental sleeve trade badges would indicate this. The generic "military medic" badge (Staff and wreath on cherry backing) would be worn on the upper right sleeve, alone or above rank chevrons but below the Crown, if worn) but the clinical grade/seniority trade badge would be worn on the forearm of the left sleeve, directly above the point of the cuff. Warrant Officers would not wear trade badges on the right upper arm and would not be required to wear the left sleeve grade badge but could do so if wished. Professionally trained NCOs would wear their chevrons on Stewart blue backing and the trade badge would be replaced with their profession's insignia, worn within a wreath.

Officer insignia and grade titles were hotly debated. Much as with the creation of the RAF a century before, there were many attempts to blend different elements but ultimately none were successful. The final solution was to use pin-on metal shoulder insignia on hard shoulder boards for service / No1 dress (or the embroidered equivalent on soft shoulder slides for general wear); these would take the form of "bars" which would be arranged in a pattern that essentially equated to RN and RAF insignia for all ranks up to OF-6.

Ranks above this would wear insignia based on the RN / Army symbol for Flag / General officers but which changed the crossed baton and sword for a crossed baton and Staff of Aesculapius, with a Crown above. Individual rank markings would be determined by a number of markers below this, per RN Flag Officer pattern. This was not the preferred option of many but was eventually agreed as this was felt to be most readily discernible to forces of other countries. In place of the usual Bath star of the Army or the eight-point star of the RN an alternative symbol was sought and the eight-point Maltese cross of the Knights Hospitaller was proposed. The cap badge would be the Army general / RAF air officer badge with the crossed baton and staff symbol. Uniform embellishments would include gorget patches and cap badges with the Royal crest for senior staff officers. Peak decorations would include embroidery for OF-2 and above in recognition of their professionally qualified status and oakleaves for OF-4 and above as OF-4 would be the basic grade for medical staff at the equivalent of civilian "Consultant" status -- or "Attending" in US terminology).

The Army almost won the day with its preference for military rank titles (Lieutenant, Captain, Major, Colonel, General, etc.) but in the end no formal final agreement was reached so a simple set of role-descriptor titles was temporarily agreed for all branches, based largely on a combination of the terminology used by the three forces' nursing services to describe roles rather than ranks (which was adapted for other officer grades) and also incorporating the already established "Director" role descriptions of senior officers within the current Tri-Service medical structure.

It is hoped that more military-sounding officer titles will be agreed in time but the role-descriptions are equally applicable to all branches of the new merged service, with the basic designations being "Medical Officer", "Dental Officer", "Nursing Officer", "Associate Medical Officer" for other profesions, including pharmacists, and "Medical Support Officer" for non-clinical staff. Designations of seniority will be prefixes that include "Junior" "Senior" "Principal" and so on.

The overall professional head of service will be the Director-General of the RDMS, with a number of other senior officers in the appointments of Deputy and Assistant Director-General. There will also be specific Directors for the Nursing and Dental branches.


OK, enough blurb -- here are some pics:


RDMS Details.jpg



RDMS Badges.jpg



RDMS Medical Officers.jpg



RDNS Nursing Officers.jpg



RDMS ORs (all branches).jpg



RDMS Senior Officers.jpg



RDMS Officers.jpg



RDMS ORs.jpg
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Re: CHALLENGE ! maxi-branched British Armed Forces

Unread postby marcpasquin » Tue Feb 17, 2015 1:38 pm

Medic_in_Uniform wrote:I developed these without realising what Marc had already posted -- any similarity is entirely coincidental...! smilies-23


considering we were using the same source material, I say that was pretty much unavoidable.

Medic_in_Uniform wrote:I've also realised that it looks a LOT like the insignia the Canadians are just getting rid of...! Oh well... (!).
[/quote]

I like the whole design, especially the fairly elegant way the sub-branches are distinguished but have 2 questions:

1- wouldn't the use of the hospitalier cross by the higher up runs the risk of people making joking comparison with St-John Ambulance service's officers ?

2- Since the RAF use RN but using a different colour scheme, couldn't the same be done in some way ? either as a soutache in sub-branch colour in the middle of the gold stripe (a bit like the RAF) or by using silver instead ?
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Re: CHALLENGE ! maxi-branched British Armed Forces

Unread postby Medic_in_Uniform » Tue Feb 17, 2015 3:20 pm

marcpasquin wrote:considering we were using the same source material, I say that was pretty much unavoidable.


Indeed...! Great minds think alike... smilies-15
(By the way, I've added a few details to the post above so feel free to have another look.)

marcpasquin wrote:I like the whole design, especially the fairly elegant way the sub-branches are distinguished.


Thanks - it was an integral part of the concept from the outset; better recognition for the broader spectrum of professional roles was something that I felt should be built into the structure; given that most military health staff also work within the National Health Service hospitals when not deployed it seemed appropriate to give a degree of acknowledgement to all roles requiring external professional qualifications, especially those professions subject to statutory regulation and registration.

marcpasquin wrote:1- wouldn't the use of the hospitalier cross by the higher up runs the risk of people making joking comparison with St-John Ambulance service's officers ?


Yes, certainly a possibility, I guess. I wanted something that looked a little different to the established stars but also had some relevance to healthcare; I was thinking "Order of St John" to replace "Order of the Bath" given the historical role of the Knights Hospitaller that preceded the current (UK) Order of St John. There are, undoubtedly, also links to St John Ambulance, the voluntary first aid society but that wasn't uppermost in my thoughts. In the UK, the SJA charity still uses grade markings (although now somewhat toned down compared to the ridiculous "dictator bling" ranks that they used to wear...) but they use Bath-style pips and their own alternate design of crown; the Maltese cross itself only appears in the badge. (Well, OK, there's a tiny one at the centre of the pips but that's hardly visible).

marcpasquin wrote:2- Since the RAF use RN but using a different colour scheme, couldn't the same be done in some way ? either as a soutache in sub-branch colour in the middle of the gold stripe (a bit like the RAF) or by using silver instead ?


Another fair point, and I'm always open to suggestions! I did think about that (I actually used something similar for the RAF medical branch in my alternative history in the Marshal of the Empire thread) but the problem with multiple alternating colours is that it just ends up looking like a barcode on a can of beans (and "barcode" is still the nickname for RAF officer rank markings). If I was designing the RAF insignia from scratch I wouldn't have chosen the black lace with pale-blue centre stripe; against the grey-blue backing of the tunics and sweaters or the Wedgwood blue of the shirts it can be pretty hard to distinguish at a glance -- you just end up with a whole bunch of alternating dark and light bands!

I was also thinking of cost, and using very simple cast-metal pin on bars in a standard design for the vast majority of ranks of all branches seems the easiest and cheapest way to do it; it's also relatively easy to replicate on soft slides for operational wear. What I actually had in mind (but haven't drawn) was that for operational dress the pattern of bars would be embroidered (or embossed) onto the slides in the branch colour; i.e. cherry for doctors and NCO medics, grey for nurses; green for dentists and so on. This could be in "full" colour for general wear but in faded or "washed-out" subdued colour for combat dress. This way you can still tell at a glance both grade and core role.

This is not unlike the red lace stripes you suggested in your post and, to be honest, there's actually no reason why coloured bars couldn't be used on the formal uniforms too -- but I suspect it would be taken to look not sufficiently "officer-like" for a disciplined, uniformed military service alongside the other services, hence I decided in the end to stick with the pin-on gold bars as the formal version of the insignia, with other "down-graded" versions for more practical orders of dress being derived from this.

As an aside, I imagined a "discussion" between the RAF and RN officers over whether or not the pattern of officer bars from the service dress could be converted to traditional full gold sleeve rings for mess dress or ceremonial uniforms (and how the Army might respond to that...). I'm still thinking about that one.

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Re: CHALLENGE ! maxi-branched British Armed Forces

Unread postby chay1 » Wed Feb 18, 2015 10:00 pm

Brand new to the forums, but I have spent years developing military systems, forces and rank systems, and since I am also British these topic intrigued me enough to set up an account.

I really like the Idea of a Colonial service attached to the Royal Marines, and so here's my first attempt at Her Majesty's Marine Service (Ideas developed from others suggestions).

HMMS: During WWI Volunteers from the various territories of the British Empire joined His Majesty's Royal Marine Light Infantry, in 1919 these Volunteers were organised as members of His Majesty's Marine Service. The volunteers from the various territories made up the enlisted and NCO corps of the Marine Service, whilst the Officer Corps was made up of seconded Officers from the Royal Marines Light Infantry. AT it's height in the 1940s/50s HMMS would have number around 10,000 including both Officers and Enlisted.
Today there are only a few Detachments left, stationed in Bermuda, Cayman Islands, Gibraltar and the Falklands. The Marines are not commando trained due to lack of facilities in their respective territories, although they're are annual opportunities to undertake Commando training in the UK, those who successfully pass the Commando training are then permitted to wear 'COMMANDO' Tabs on their uniform.

Ranks:
http://dj-chay.deviantart.com/art/Her-M ... -514891239
The Ranks go Marine, Lance-Corporal, Corporal, Sergeant, Colour Sergeant, Warrant Officer Class 2, Warrant Officer Class 1, Commissioned Warrant Officer.
I imagine the ranks being similar to the RM ranks but with some unusual ranks which the RM used to have and have ended up being left in the rank structure of the HMMS.
A complete list of RM Enlisted/NCO ranks that the RM have ever used go (lowest rank to highest)
Marine, Private (RMLI), Gunner (RMA)
Lance Corporal, Lance Bombardier (RMA)
Corporal, Bombardier (RMA)
Sergeant
Colour sergeant, Company quartermaster sergeant
Quartermaster Sergeant
Sergeant Major
Staff Sergeant Major
Gunnery Sergeant Major
Regimental Sergeant Major
Warrant Officer Class 2
Warrant Officer Class 1
Warrant Officer
Commissioned Warrant Officer
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Re: CHALLENGE ! maxi-branched British Armed Forces

Unread postby marcpasquin » Thu Feb 26, 2015 12:08 am

this is based on an idea I had for an alternate canadian armed forces unification that I decided to revisit and adapt to this purpose.

The idea is the creation of an Intendancy separate from the other branches that would group together combat support units such as catering, engineers and intelligence.

table-intendancy.jpg


I wanted to do as with the RAF but reverse it with enlisted based on RN and officers based on the army. giving them the same items felt a bit like cheating but at the same time, denying them crowns and the order of the bath's star could feel like a slight so I went with a royal lion crest to replace the crown and the order of the bath's ribbon to replace the pip.

The columns on the enlisted insignias instead of the anchors represent their supporting function.

I gave them grey duty uniforms with purple highlights (single breasted for enlisted, double for officers) to more easily tell them apart from the other services a grey jumpsuit is sometime worn for dirty work or whichever other branches' field uniform might be appropriate. An individual's trade is indicated by pins on his lapels.

the purple dress uniform would be a "non-legacy" one. That is to say, those units without a specific traditional parade dress would wear this.

Their emblem incidently is of Atlas supporting the world.
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