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HYPOTHETICAL RANKS

US Space Force

Dealing primarily with contemporary and historical Earth nations. (Science-fiction oriented rank systems, such as Star Trek, Starship Troopers, etc.), should be placed in FICTIVE Rank Insignia.

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US Space Force

Unread postby marcpasquin » Thu Nov 19, 2015 5:23 am

US Space Force. Loosely based on modern day US Air Force.

US-Space-force-table-small.jpg
us space force


Full size:

http://marcpasquin.deviantart.com/art/US-Space-force-table-big-572891155
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Re: US Space Force

Unread postby dcfowler » Fri Nov 20, 2015 6:03 am

The biggest problem that I see would be difficulty in distinguishing the senior NCO rank insignia. They would look the same from a distance.
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Re: US Space Force

Unread postby marcpasquin » Fri Nov 20, 2015 6:12 am

dcfowler wrote:The biggest problem that I see would be difficulty in distinguishing the senior NCO rank insignia. They would look the same from a distance.


to a greater level then the USAF ones ?
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Re: US Space Force

Unread postby Dorward_Bis » Fri Nov 20, 2015 1:26 pm

Hmmm.... These rank insignias look a bit non-ergonomic. Of course, this is just my opinion)
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Re: US Space Force

Unread postby marcpasquin » Fri Nov 20, 2015 1:39 pm

Dorward_Bis wrote:Hmmm.... These rank insignias look a bit non-ergonomic. Of course, this is just my opinion)


not sure what you mean. Is it that they seem uncomfortable to wear ?
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Re: US Space Force

Unread postby Dorward_Bis » Fri Nov 20, 2015 4:29 pm

Marc, I mean they are a bit uncomfortable to indetify the rank immediatuly, one should spend some time to calculate number of arcs etc - by the way, same as for modern USAF enlisted and NCOs rank insignias. But, I repeat once again - this is just my opinion:)
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Re: US Space Force

Unread postby marcpasquin » Fri Nov 20, 2015 11:45 pm

Dorward_Bis wrote: But, I repeat once again - this is just my opinion:)


I posted the image so I could get feedback so opinion welcome. I might think of something and revisit later on.
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Re: US Space Force

Unread postby Miklós Lovász » Mon Nov 23, 2015 6:06 am

viewtopic.php?f=125&t=5363

True, this was about an all-human space force, but it does have some distinctly US-based insignia, courtesy of oour own medic-in-Uniform.
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Re: US Space Force

Unread postby dcfowler » Mon Nov 23, 2015 7:16 am

to a greater level then the USAF ones ?


Yes. With each chevron or rocker, the USAF insignia gets bigger. These are locked within a common shape and size, so that sort of distinguishing characteristic would be lost on the viewer.
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Re: US Space Force

Unread postby marcpasquin » Mon Nov 23, 2015 9:35 am

dcfowler wrote:
to a greater level then the USAF ones ?


Yes. With each chevron or rocker, the USAF insignia gets bigger. These are locked within a common shape and size, so that sort of distinguishing characteristic would be lost on the viewer.


But the 4 topmost ranks (which is what I assumed you were referring to) are only distinguished by a small symbol in the "void" or around the central star with their size being identical so I'm not sure if the rank insignias aboce would indeed be that much harder to tell apart from a distance.
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Re: US Space Force

Unread postby Dorward_Bis » Mon Nov 23, 2015 11:24 am

Well, as I know, the human's eye is capable to tell apart three same shapes "glued together" or four same shapes "placed apart" immediatuly. The fourth shape in the first case and the fifth shape in the second case require a bit more time to identify the number of shapes (the eye has to calculate them).

Actually, imho again, among most acceptable rank insignia systems (for enlisted and NCOs particularly) are UK, USA (Army and Marines) and some of ex-Soviet Armies.
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Re: US Space Force

Unread postby dcfowler » Tue Nov 24, 2015 6:17 am

But the 4 topmost ranks (which is what I assumed you were referring to) are only distinguished by a small symbol in the "void" or around the central star with their size being identical so I'm not sure if the rank insignias aboce would indeed be that much harder to tell apart from a distance.


For the E-9s, there is a significant blank space between the stripes and the rockers. 1st Sgt adds a lozenge, Command CMSgt adds a star. CMSAF has very little blank space at all. I suppose a lozenge and a star might be hard to distinguish at a distance, but my experience is that otherwise, you can tell them apart pretty well from far away. These seem more scrunched together, and would be harder to tell apart.

When a USSF comes about, it will undoubtably come from the USAF, and I imagine the stripes will align closely with the Air Force, the way that Coast Guard insignia hews closely to the Navy's. Dave
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Re: US Space Force

Unread postby venqax » Thu Dec 17, 2015 10:04 pm

Not sure what some of the comments mean. The real USAF insignia are only distinguished by progressive numbers of chevrons. Same with the Army and Marines (arcs, or rockers). And the various E-9 types are, in fact, noted only by the symbols in the void between the chevrons and rockers. So what is different about these? One thing though: Since in the US system silver out-ranks gold, it doesn't really makes sense that the singular, highest ranking enlisted man would have gold instead of silver insignia. Just my opinion. Great artwork.
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Re: US Space Force

Unread postby SFMRAS » Fri Dec 18, 2015 1:02 pm

venqax wrote:Not sure what some of the comments mean. The real USAF insignia are only distinguished by progressive numbers of chevrons. Same with the Army and Marines (arcs, or rockers). And the various E-9 types are, in fact, noted only by the symbols in the void between the chevrons and rockers. So what is different about these? One thing though: Since in the US system silver out-ranks gold, it doesn't really makes sense that the singular, highest ranking enlisted man would have gold instead of silver insignia. Just my opinion. Great artwork.

Not always.
General Pershing wore four gold stars as a General of the Army, while other generals wore four stars.
Command master chief petty officers have two silver stars above the arc and a silver star between the arc and the chevron, while the force master chief petty officers wear the same insignia, but with gold stars.
It's just the warrant and commissioned officers who currently have the silver over gold distinction.
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Re: US Space Force

Unread postby marcpasquin » Sat Dec 19, 2015 1:49 pm

SFMRAS wrote:Not always.
General Pershing wore four gold stars as a General of the Army, while other generals wore four stars.
Command master chief petty officers have two silver stars above the arc and a silver star between the arc and the chevron, while the force master chief petty officers wear the same insignia, but with gold stars.
It's just the warrant and commissioned officers who currently have the silver over gold distinction.


naval enlisted insignias was indeed my justification but as an aside, I was under the impression that pershing's were never officialy adopted, is there some sort of chart that includes it ?
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Re: US Space Force

Unread postby SFMRAS » Sat Dec 19, 2015 3:50 pm

marcpasquin wrote:
SFMRAS wrote:Not always.
General Pershing wore four gold stars as a General of the Army, while other generals wore four stars.
Command master chief petty officers have two silver stars above the arc and a silver star between the arc and the chevron, while the force master chief petty officers wear the same insignia, but with gold stars.
It's just the warrant and commissioned officers who currently have the silver over gold distinction.


naval enlisted insignias was indeed my justification but as an aside, I was under the impression that pershing's were never officialy adopted, is there some sort of chart that includes it ?

This is the only thing I could find:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_o ... n_Pershing
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Re: US Space Force

Unread postby J.T. Broderick » Sat Dec 19, 2015 7:26 pm

marcpasquin wrote:I was under the impression that pershing's were never officialy adopted, is there some sort of chart that includes it ?


No. That is apparently something some Wikipedia user came up with. There is no supporting documentation, and the most thorough biographies of Pershing all say that he wore the same rank insignia as other generals. There is one painted portrait that shows gold stars, which I would attribute to artist error. There are a number of others that show silver stars. The "Specifications for the Uniform" (AR 600-35) Oct. 1921 states that the General of the Armies can prescribe his own coat collar insignia, but for shoulder rank insignia it lists only "General -- four silver stars".

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Re: US Space Force

Unread postby Lord Cybran » Wed Dec 23, 2015 8:12 pm

Here's my proposal of enlisted rank insignia, based on the present USAF insignia but with some distinguishing features.
- The insignia consist mostly of chevrons stylized to resemble wings, superimposed with the previously proposed USSF logo.
- Ranks E-1 through E-4 include "Crewman" instead of "Astronaut", because "Astronaut" implies a person who travels aboard a spaceship - which will probably not always be the case for USSF members, as there will always be need for some ground crew, and "Crewman" fits well both spaceship crew and ground crew.
- Rockers added at the top of insignia of E-7 through E-9. The blue space in the middle contains a white diamond for "starship/starbase sergeants", a star for Command Chief Master Sergeants, and the US Great Seal plus two small stars for the Chief Master Sergeant of the Space Force.

As for warrant officers, the USAF doesn't have any of those, therefore it's most probable that the USSF won't have them either.

As for officers, the insignia would probably be the same as USAF's or US Army's, but with a different background color. The most popular uniform color in sci-fi for space forces is gray, but I'm not sure whether gray is a good color for US uniforms, though I think it would be good to adopt it to distinguish from USAF uniforms. What do you think?
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Re: US Space Force

Unread postby Dorward_Bis » Thu Dec 24, 2015 7:45 am

Looks interesting) But again, taking into consideration the so-called, ergonomic aspect: try to limit these insignias with three wings and three arcs as a maximum, and with repeating combination of wings-arcs with an empty field, diamond and a star. Therefore, the system would look as follows:
E-1 - 1 wing
E-2 - 1 wing + 1 arc
E-3 - 2 wings
E-4 - 2 wings + 1 arc
E-5 - 3 wings
E-6 - 3 wings + 1 arc
E-7(1) - 3 wings + 2 arcs
E-7(2) - 3 wings + 2 arc + Diamond
E-8(1) - 3 wings + 3 arcs
E-8(2) - 3 wings + 3 arcs + Diamond
E-9(1) - 3 wings + 3 arcs + Star
E-9(2) - 3 wings + 3 arcs + Coat-of-Arms

Of course, this is more an Army-style than a USAF-style, but such system allows you to know the rank of a person without "calculating" the number of wings (I've mentioned already that the human's eye is capable to tell apart three same shapes glued together or four same shapes separated immediately, the more number shoud take some time to "calculate").
But, again, all this is just my opinion, no more)
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Re: US Space Force

Unread postby Medic_in_Uniform » Thu Dec 24, 2015 12:48 pm

Actually, I rather like Marc's original designs... smilies-02
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Re: US Space Force

Unread postby Lord Cybran » Mon Jan 04, 2016 8:15 pm

Yep, I liked Marc's designs at first too, but then I noticed it's a bit hard to distinguish "Senior Astronaut", "Staff Sergeant" and "Technical Sergeant", especially from a distance.

Here is a chart for USSF officer ranks (which are actually the USAF officer ranks but on gray shoulder boards and the five-star rank entitled "General of the Space Force"). smilies-22
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USSF officer ranks.png
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Re: US Space Force

Unread postby Medic_in_Uniform » Mon Jan 04, 2016 8:27 pm

Given the nature of the role, I didn't think there would be much need to worry about identifying grades at a distance.

If one was being pedantic, one might suggest that the General of the Space Force should probably have the Arms of the USA above the five stars, as do the formal versions of the insignia for the equivalent grades in the US Army and the US Air Force.


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Re: US Space Force

Unread postby venqax » Mon Jan 04, 2016 9:03 pm

As far as I know, the General of the Air Force insignia has always been simply the circle (pentagon) of five small stars. It has never included the US coat of arms as the General of the Army insignia did.
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Re: US Space Force

Unread postby venqax » Mon Jan 04, 2016 9:30 pm

J.T. Broderick wrote:
marcpasquin wrote:I was under the impression that pershing's were never officialy adopted, is there some sort of chart that includes it ?


No. That is apparently something some Wikipedia user came up with. There is no supporting documentation, and the most thorough biographies of Pershing all say that he wore the same rank insignia as other generals. There is one painted portrait that shows gold stars, which I would attribute to artist error. There are a number of others that show silver stars. The "Specifications for the Uniform" (AR 600-35) Oct. 1921 states that the General of the Armies can prescribe his own coat collar insignia, but for shoulder rank insignia it lists only "General -- four silver stars".

Justin


I agree. In fact, I have submitted an inquiry to the US Army's history center asking for clarification regarding that very things. So far as I can tell, the "gold stars" are the creation of the famous painting and no record exists of Pershing actually wearing or adopting gold stars or wearing anything other than the standard 4 standard silver stars of a general. I think this is a "factoid" that keeps getting repeated without any substantiation. However, one site I found (can't find it now) did claim that the 4 gold stars were officially recognized as Pershing's insignia retroactively sometime in the 1950s. Have not corroboration of that, though, just one claim. No response yet from the Army's authorities.
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