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Re: Royal Navy 1787-1795

Unread postby Luke2 » Sat Feb 01, 2014 3:45 pm

RN War of 1812.png
I don't think than petty officers and men had any special rank insignia, since they didn't have any proper uniforms. The illustration just show a generic seamen's dress, that would only have been worn if they ever were allowed shore leave (something the Captain was extremely reluctant to give, since British sailors - mostly being pressed men, earning substantially less than in the merchant marine - would run away as soon as they had any opportunity).

The illustration is from a very interesting site (in French) about the war of 1812: http://history-uniforms.over-blog.com/s ... al%20navy/

Lots of illustrations of British, Canadian and US uniforms.
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Re: Royal Navy 1787-1795

Unread postby Dorward_Bis » Sat Feb 01, 2014 4:19 pm

Hmmm... There are several contradictions between the picture you demonstrated in your last post and descriptions in http://www.rmg.co.uk/researchers/librar ... Collection .

First of all, VADm in that period had 2 not 1 star - 1 star had a RAdm. Secondly - from the text of the National Maritime Museum, concerning uniform changes 1812-1825: "Captains and commanders both wore two epaulettes: captains over three years' seniority with a silver crown and anchor, captains under three years with a silver anchor, commanders plain. Lieutenants' dress uniform was the same as captains but without any lace and with one plain epaulette on the right shoulder. Undress uniform for captains, commanders and lieutenants was the same as the 1795 captains' undress uniform but with the same buttons and epaulettes as in full dress". But the French picture shows something contradictory to this description. And (this is not so inportant, as I guess) as I know the traditional RN admiral's star was not 5-pointed but 8-pointed.
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Re: Royal Navy 1787-1795

Unread postby Luke2 » Sat Feb 01, 2014 5:10 pm

You are absolutely right about that. I mostly furnished the image in order to illustrate a generic seamen's uniform. But it’s good of you to point out the inaccuracies that exist. I did not even notice them. And I do believe that the difference between a five-point and eight-point star is an important one.
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Re: Royal Navy 1787-1795

Unread postby SFMRAS » Sun Feb 02, 2014 12:29 am

It's probable that the artist is French and simply based it off of a French general officer's rank insignia.

I have a book on British rank insignia, and would be willing to supply descriptions, and if I can get my scanner working, images.
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Re: Royal Navy 1787-1795

Unread postby Dorward_Bis » Sun Feb 02, 2014 12:41 pm

SFMRAS wrote:It's probable that the artist is French and simply based it off of a French general officer's rank insignia.

I have a book on British rank insignia, and would be willing to supply descriptions, and if I can get my scanner working, images.


Well, but as soon as RN insignia had nothing common with French ones of that period, the artist should at least look at some historical source - thanks Internet, we have such an opportunity))

Good idea, colleague SFMRAS - would be great to see your scans.

Now, basing on some previous pictures and some additional descriptions (thanking to colleague Luke 2, first of all) I've made a set of RN uniforms of the discussed period - http://www.uniforminsignia.org/?option= ... esult=3498 . I suppose the warrant's uniform is correct as well.
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Re: Royal Navy 1787-1795

Unread postby SFMRAS » Sun Feb 02, 2014 4:28 pm

Dorward_Bis wrote:
SFMRAS wrote:It's probable that the artist is French and simply based it off of a French general officer's rank insignia.

I have a book on British rank insignia, and would be willing to supply descriptions, and if I can get my scanner working, images.


Well, but as soon as RN insignia had nothing common with French ones of that period, the artist should at least look at some historical source - thanks Internet, we have such an opportunity))

Good idea, colleague SFMRAS - would be great to see your scans.

Now, basing on some previous pictures and some additional descriptions (thanking to colleague Luke 2, first of all) I've made a set of RN uniforms of the discussed period - http://www.uniforminsignia.org/?option= ... esult=3498 . I suppose the warrant's uniform is correct as well.

I've seen it happen before. A lot of description of rank insignia are generic; s colonel has three stars (no mention of points,) or a major wears three bars (no mention of length, or width,) just generic descriptions. Now that I think of it, it could also be a limitation of the program s/he used.

Thanks, I'll get on the scanning later today.
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Unread postby Luke2 » Sun Feb 02, 2014 5:29 pm

Hallo Dmitriy: Here is something else that will test your artistic skill./Luke

Surgeons
Full Dress: Coat the same as the Physician with the Exception of Gold Lace, White cloth Waistcoat and Breeches, plain Hat. Surgeons of Hospitals to wear two embroidered Button-holes on the Collar; Surgeons of Ship's, one. Undress: Coat the same as the Physician, but without Buttons on Cuffs or Pockets, Waistcoat and Breeches of white or blue cloth, as may be convenient.

http://www.rmg.co.uk/researchers/librar ... Collection

Surgeon full dress 1807.jpg
Surgeon full dress 1897

Surgeon full dress collar 1807.jpg
Ship's Surgeon: One embroidered Button-hole

Surgeon's hat 1807.jpg
Surgeon's hat 1807
Surgeon's hat 1807.jpg (5.1 KiB) Viewed 15318 times
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Re: Royal Navy 1787-1795

Unread postby Dorward_Bis » Sun Feb 02, 2014 8:53 pm

Luke, thanks a lot for an interesting info)).

I think it would be interesting indeed to make a separate gallery of XVIII and XIX centuries enlisted, NCOs and warrants uniforms, because most of sources I acquainted with are devoted to commissioned officers uniforms and rank insignias.
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Re: Royal Navy 1787-1795

Unread postby SFMRAS » Mon Feb 03, 2014 5:35 am

Apologies for the crappy pictures, but I had to scan them with my mouse/scanner hybrid.
The images were over two pages, with the ranks in descending order.
Assuming the pictures are in order, there should be five ranks on the top of the first, and six atop the second one.
First image should be:
Admiral of the Fleet, Admiral, Vice-Admiral, Rear Admiral, Commodore.
The second should be:
Captain over 3 years, Captain under 3 years, Commander, Lieutenant over 8 years, Lieutenant, Mate.
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rnoff (1).png
rnoff (2).png
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Re: Royal Navy 1787-1795

Unread postby Dorward_Bis » Mon Feb 03, 2014 11:21 am

Thanks, SFMRAS))

I've decided to combine your pictures into one - it is more suitable to work with it.
Image
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Re: Royal Navy 1787-1795

Unread postby SFMRAS » Mon Feb 03, 2014 7:05 pm

Dorward_Bis wrote:Thanks, SFMRAS))

I've decided to combine your pictures into one - it is more suitable to work with it.
Image

Your welcome. And thank you for combining them. I had intended to, but after probably a dozen tries in scanning it, the one time I got around to combining it, I ended up realizing that the two scans had problems, leading me to have to rescan them again! smilies-20 smilies-20

I believe there are epaulettes on one of the following pages, and if not, then in another book. I'll get around to scanning later today/early tomorrow. Stay tuned! smilies-01
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Re: Royal Navy 1787-1795

Unread postby Dorward_Bis » Mon Feb 03, 2014 8:35 pm

Great! Thanks, mate))
And it would be great too if you could find out any pictures of naval uniforms for all (if possible) or at least most of periods since 1825(1827) till 1891 - I tried to do this by myself but failed, because I could find some pictures and photos only which do not reflect necessary details of uniforms - I mean, number of buttons, cuff insignia, laces, collar insignia, hats etc. So, if such an information is contained in your books and you could share it with me, I would be incredibly thankful))
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Re: Royal Navy 1787-1795

Unread postby Dorward_Bis » Tue Feb 04, 2014 8:19 am

Btw - right now I'm watching again my favorite British serial "Hornblower" - looks like their navy uniform is very authentic. Of course there is some difference between what is shown in museums and in this movie, but not so significant. Period of Regulations 1795-1812.
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Re: Royal Navy 1787-1795

Unread postby ChrisWI » Tue Feb 04, 2014 5:17 pm

Dorward_Bis wrote:Btw - right now I'm watching again my favorite British serial "Hornblower" - looks like their navy uniform is very authentic. Of course there is some difference between what is shown in museums and in this movie, but not so significant. Period of Regulations 1795-1812.

Very good show, it's a shame it was cancelled. Ioan Grufford was amazing in the role smilies-33

Pavel's website depicts the dress uniform while in the show they mainly wore the undress uniform (ie: with the white lapel piping for Lieutenants).
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Re: Royal Navy 1787-1795

Unread postby Dorward_Bis » Tue Feb 04, 2014 6:30 pm

ChrisWI wrote:[Pavel's website depicts the dress uniform while in the show they mainly wore the undress uniform (ie: with the white lapel piping for Lieutenants).


That's right - all uniforms depicted on the website are dress uniforms. Now I intend to make undress uniforms of same periods - the difference will be visible.
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Re: Royal Navy 1787-1795

Unread postby SFMRAS » Tue Feb 04, 2014 6:53 pm

Dorward_Bis wrote:Great! Thanks, mate))
And it would be great too if you could find out any pictures of naval uniforms for all (if possible) or at least most of periods since 1825(1827) till 1891 - I tried to do this by myself but failed, because I could find some pictures and photos only which do not reflect necessary details of uniforms - I mean, number of buttons, cuff insignia, laces, collar insignia, hats etc. So, if such an information is contained in your books and you could share it with me, I would be incredibly thankful))

The color photos and illustrations are from Dressed to Kill by Amy Miller.
The black and white one is from Badges and Insignia of the British Armed Services by W.E. May, W.Y. Carmen, and John Tanner, the same place as the rank charts. I can't find epaulettes illustrations of the RN in the Badges book, but did find one in DtK.
I've included cuff details.
There are more photos to be scanned, but I'll get to them later.
Apologies for the crappy qualities of some of those scans
Attachments
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Scan_February-4-2014-11-46-40-468-AM.png
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Re: Royal Navy 1787-1795

Unread postby SFMRAS » Tue Feb 04, 2014 7:00 pm

And one more post, since I can only post ten photos per post. These proved to be almost as difficult as my first scan. smilies-20
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Re: Royal Navy 1787-1795

Unread postby Dorward_Bis » Wed Feb 05, 2014 9:29 am

Invaluable info, my friend)) Pictures of Outfit allow to draw not just a "generic uniform" but something more specific - at least you can measure sizes and dimensions of laces, buttons etc...
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Re: Royal Navy 1787-1795

Unread postby Luke2 » Wed Feb 05, 2014 6:04 pm

Full dress coat - cuff detail, Royal Naval uniform_pattern 1856.jpg
Full dress uniform, Royal Naval uniform: pattern 1856
Full dress uniform, Royal Naval uniform_pattern 1856 2.jpg
Full dress uniform, Royal Naval uniform: pattern 1856
Full dress uniform, Royal Naval uniform_pattern 1856.jpg
Full dress uniform, Royal Naval uniform: pattern 1856
Full dress coat, Royal Naval uniform_possibly pattern 1856-1891.jpg
Full dress coat: possibly pattern 1856-1891
Full dress coat - back, Royal Naval uniform_possibly pattern 1856-1891.jpg
Full dress coat: possibly pattern 1856-1891


Source: Royal Museums Greenwich

http://prints.rmg.co.uk/art/515143/Full ... ly_pattern
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Royal Navy Purser

Unread postby Luke2 » Wed Feb 05, 2014 6:13 pm

Royal Navy Purser 4.jpg
Royal Navy Purser 3.jpg
Royal Navy Purser 2.jpg
Rank insignia: White as a branch colour?
Royal Navy Purser 1.jpg
Button
Full dress tail coat and cocked hat worn by Jeremiah Linde Jones, Royal Navy Purser

Unclear pattern, but obviously early 19th century

Contributed by: Braidwood Museum

Source: Australian Dress Register

http://www.australiandressregister.org/garment/480/
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Textual Sources

Unread postby Luke2 » Wed Feb 05, 2014 6:32 pm

Textual Sources

Officer’s Uniforms of the British Navy

http://www.janeausten.co.uk/officers-un ... tish-navy/

Overview, not much details; early 19th century

Uniform regulations 30th October 1877

http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.anc ... rm_RN.html

Detailed, with rank insignia; no illustrations.

See also: http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.anc ... Naval.html

Index to other pertinent sites including "Dress Regulations for Royal Marine Officers"

Naval Uniforms

http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.anc ... ml#Ratings

Overwiev, more detailed, no illustrations; from 1849
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Re: Royal Navy 1787-1795

Unread postby SFMRAS » Wed Feb 05, 2014 8:31 pm

Luke2 wrote:
Full dress coat - cuff detail, Royal Naval uniform_pattern 1856.jpg
Full dress uniform, Royal Naval uniform_pattern 1856 2.jpg
Full dress uniform, Royal Naval uniform_pattern 1856.jpg
Full dress coat, Royal Naval uniform_possibly pattern 1856-1891.jpg
Full dress coat - back, Royal Naval uniform_possibly pattern 1856-1891.jpg


Source: Royal Museums Greenwich

http://prints.rmg.co.uk/art/515143/Full ... ly_pattern

These uniforms are similar to the Pattern 1827-30, as per Amy Miller's DtK. Per the blurb 'The primary difference between ... 1827 ... [and] 1843 is the white slash and blue cuff ... n the latter.
Curiously, the picture is labeled 'Commander,' but the cuffs appear to have a [i]Commodore's
braid. The only differences I can tell from the front of the Admiral you posted is the fact that the 'commander's' ring cuff forms an 'L' at the cuff, the gold stripe at the bottom of the tunic, and the bottom two buttons being plain. Other photos with a similar cuff detail is labeled as an 'Admiral' in the book, so maybe that's in the Regulations?
I'll scan the photos later, although most of your posts appear to have them already in it. I recognized the photos when I got the book from some websites I visited, but I wasn't aware of any other sites.
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Re: Royal Navy 1787-1795

Unread postby SFMRAS » Wed Feb 05, 2014 8:37 pm

Dorward_Bis wrote:Thanks, SFMRAS))

I've decided to combine your pictures into one - it is more suitable to work with it.
Image

I just noticed something:
Immediately above the 'Captains 3+ years' text, the insignia is incorrect. Instead of sporting a crown, a star, and an anchor, it just shows a crown and an anchor. I think that's the only error, but I can barely keep my eyes open, so I could be wrong.
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RN Purser uniform pattern 1833

Unread postby Luke2 » Wed Feb 05, 2014 9:21 pm

Pursers & Captain's Clerk.jpg
Pursers and Captain's Clerk
Royal Naval uniform for Purser pattern 1833.jpg
RN Purser full dress pattern 1833


Sources:

http://collections.rmg.co.uk/collection ... 71431.html

http://prints.rmg.co.uk/art/504563/Cost ... ains_Clerk
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Re: Royal Navy 1787-1795

Unread postby Dorward_Bis » Thu Feb 06, 2014 5:05 pm

Thanks, Luke - it becomes more clear gradually concerning uniform details of that period. Good work, colleague))

Another moment I'd like to discuss: in various sources I've found two different shapes of RN epaulets which looked like being coexistent. I wonder if they had the same status, or one of them was used with an undress uniform and another with a full dress.
Image

I've made this picture to illustrate my idea. Looks like # 1 was for undress uniforms whereas # 2 and # 3 - for full dresses. Besides, it should be a difference in usage for ## 2 and 3 because # 2 is smooth and #3 is with 2 longitudinal narrow
stripes. Though may be not.

Any idea mates?
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Re: Royal Navy 1787-1795

Unread postby Luke2 » Fri Feb 07, 2014 3:43 pm

Unfortunately, no. I have three books about the Royal Navy 1793-1815, but non of them give anything but a superficial introduction to uniforms.

I once owned this book, bought over forty years ago, but its no longer in my possession. If one could find it in a library, it contains a lot of information.

Mollo.jpg
UNIFORMS OF THE ROYAL NAVY DURING THE NAPOLEONIC WARS.

John Mollo.

Published by London: Hugh Evelyn 1965 1st prtg., 1965
Mollo.jpg (11.51 KiB) Viewed 14651 times

Mollo Midshipman.jpg
This is the type of illustrations shown in the book, together with textual information.
Mollo Midshipman.jpg (16.72 KiB) Viewed 14648 times

The frames are not original; someone has ripped out a page, and made it into an item sold separately.
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Master's Mate 1810

Unread postby Luke2 » Sun Feb 09, 2014 9:24 pm

Master's Mate 1810.jpg
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The illustration showing the uniform of a Master's Mate as it was in 1810 is taken from the book Nelson's Navy written by Philip Haythornethwaite and William Younghusband and published by Osprey.
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Royal Navy epaulettes

Unread postby Luke2 » Sun Feb 09, 2014 9:44 pm

Pair of 20th Century Royal Navy Full Dress Epaulettes.jpg
Pair of 20th Century Royal Navy Full Dress Epaulettes
http://www.tennants.co.uk/Catalogue/Lots/130754.aspx

Royal Naval uniform pattern 1795.jpg
Royal Naval uniform pattern 1795
Pair of admiral's epaulettes, belonging to Admiral Sir William Cornwallis 1744-1819. Each epaulette has stars missing. The outer row has 566.42 mm bullions.
http://collections.rmg.co.uk/collections/objects/71249.html


Royal Naval uniform pattern 1795-1812.jpg
Royal Naval uniform pattern 1795-1812
http://prints.rmg.co.uk/art/509949/Royal_Naval_uniform_pattern_1795-1812

Dmitriy: Are you sure your three epaulette types are contemporaneous? /Luke
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RN epaulettes ca 1898

Unread postby Luke2 » Sun Feb 09, 2014 10:00 pm

the_british_navy_stenzel_epaulettes.jpg
RN epaulettes ca 1898


http://camberpete.co.uk/Pre_WW1_Pages/t ... enzel.html

Sub-Lieutenant should also be Chief Boatswain and Chief Gunner.
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Re: Royal Navy 1787-1795

Unread postby Luke2 » Sun Feb 09, 2014 10:07 pm

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Re: Royal Navy epaulettes

Unread postby Dorward_Bis » Sun Feb 09, 2014 10:42 pm

Luke2 wrote:Dmitriy: Are you sure your three epaulette types are contemporaneous? /Luke


Looks like I'm wrong, Luke - it seems that #2(3) is much later version than # 1. You are right, mate.

And thanks for other plates and pictures - some of them are familiar, but several are quite new for me. Thanks))
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Re: Royal Navy 1787-1795

Unread postby kjhskj75 » Mon Feb 10, 2014 7:11 pm

On this subject, last year I drew up this site:

http://www.kjhskj75z.talktalk.net/rn-uniform/

The illustrations are not very good. (my own work)

Any comments ?
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Re: Royal Navy 1787-1795

Unread postby Dorward_Bis » Mon Feb 10, 2014 8:25 pm

kjhskj75 wrote:On this subject, last year I drew up this site:

http://www.kjhskj75z.talktalk.net/rn-uniform/

The illustrations are not very good. (my own work)

Any comments ?


Great work, colleague)) A very useful and valuable information, including illustrations. May we use this for our uniforms and insignias plates?
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Re: Royal Navy 1787-1795

Unread postby Dorward_Bis » Mon Feb 10, 2014 8:55 pm

One more moment, dear Mr.kjhskj75 - concerning stars' location on admirals (except the Admiral of the Fleet) epaulets: you had shown them for Adm and VAdm being located with two lower stars horizontally within a crescent (http://www.kjhskj75z.talktalk.net/rn-un ... tml#jacket). But as I remember in that period for RAdm, VAdm and Admiral all stars were straightened up along same longitudinal line and became a "triangle" in 1846 only when all Admirals gained crossed sword and baton with a crown over them additionally to the stars.
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Re: Royal Navy 1787-1795

Unread postby Luke2 » Mon Feb 10, 2014 9:22 pm

I am glad if I can make some kind of contribution, since I do not know how to make the drawings; I suppose you need a good program, knowledge and experience.

/Luke
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Re: Royal Navy 1787-1795

Unread postby kjhskj75 » Mon Feb 10, 2014 11:51 pm

Dorward_Bis wrote:One more moment, dear Mr.kjhskj75 - concerning stars' location on admirals (except the Admiral of the Fleet) epaulets: you had shown them for Adm and VAdm being located with two lower stars horizontally within a crescent (http://www.kjhskj75z.talktalk.net/rn-un ... tml#jacket). But as I remember in that period for RAdm, VAdm and Admiral all stars were straightened up along same longitudinal line and became a "triangle" in 1846 only when all Admirals gained crossed sword and baton with a crown over them additionally to the stars.


I think you may well be right there - this would be consistent with the table in "May, Carman & Tanner".

You are welcome to use the images, my only concern is their low quality, the stars, crowns and anchors do not bear any close similarity to those actually used, they are just images I found on the net.
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Re: Royal Navy 1787-1795

Unread postby Dorward_Bis » Tue Feb 11, 2014 3:38 pm

So, basing on Regulations of 1827 and some other materials shown by Mr.kjhskj75 and Luke2, the RN officer's uniform of that period should be something like this (a greatcoat version):
Image

This is a Captain (for both 3- and 3+ years)
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Re: Royal Navy 1787-1795

Unread postby kjhskj75 » Tue Feb 11, 2014 4:59 pm

Dorward_Bis wrote:So, basing on Regulations of 1827 and some other materials shown by Mr.kjhskj75 and Luke2, the RN officer's uniform of that period should be something like this (a greatcoat version):

This is a Captain (for both 3- and 3+ years)


Looks about right - see the guy on the left in this picture:

http://collections.rmg.co.uk/collection ... 28397.html
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Re: Royal Navy 1787-1795

Unread postby Medic_in_Uniform » Wed Feb 12, 2014 12:38 pm

kjhskj75 wrote:On this subject, last year I drew up this site:

http://www.kjhskj75z.talktalk.net/rn-uniform/

The illustrations are not very good. (my own work)

Any comments ?


I've been watching this thread develop and grow with some interest but haven't had the time to comment until now.

@kjhskj75z: that's pretty good actually -- and very helpful too. It's very useful to have an online resource that allows quick textual and visual reference. The illustrations are obviously not an exact representation of a the physical historical insignia but, honestly, that *really* doesn't matter: they are perfect for giving a quick-check visual representation of who wore what in each subsequent period of RN uniform development. Thank you for sharing your work!

I've been meaning to do something like that for ages but really just don't have the time to commit to that amount of work at the moment. I'm therefore very glad that to see that someone else has done it!

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Re: Royal Navy 1787-1795

Unread postby Dorward_Bis » Wed Feb 12, 2014 5:03 pm

This is an RN officers' line according to Regulations 1827 (a great coat version).

Image

I've strong doubts concerning Midshipman's (Mate's) insignia - according to the description, "Mates and Midshipmen wearing such coats, are to be distinguished by one row of gold twist on each cuff". But which kind of a "gold twist" - no idea except what I've shown.
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Re: Royal Navy 1787-1795

Unread postby kjhskj75 » Wed Feb 12, 2014 6:01 pm

Dorward_Bis wrote:I've strong doubts concerning Midshipman's (Mate's) insignia - according to the description, "Mates and Midshipmen wearing such coats, are to be distinguished by one row of gold twist on each cuff". But which kind of a "gold twist" - no idea except what I've shown.


I think it means threads twisted (or braided) together to make a straight, very narrow stripe.
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Re: Royal Navy 1787-1795

Unread postby SFMRAS » Wed Feb 12, 2014 7:06 pm

This scanning project is proving more difficult than I first thought! I had to resort to photographing some of the pictures; that was even more difficult at times!
Attachments
GEDC0214.JPG
Pattern 1830-43, lieutenant,front.
GEDC0215.JPG
Pattern 1830-43, lieutenant,rear.
GEDC0217.JPG
Rear view of the previously posted Purser uniform, Pattern 1830-43?
Scan_February-12-2014-12-16-00-773-PM.png
This one didn't come out well, but it's the cuff of a Pattern 1830-43. There should be a second button below the smaller side one.
Scan_February-12-2014-12-14-04-362-PM.png
Midshipman, rear
Scan_February-12-2014-12-12-31-799-PM.png
Midshipman, front
Scan_February-12-2014-12-10-02-751-PM.png
Scan_February-12-2014-12-08-53-042-PM.png
Full dress, commander, trousers
Scan_February-12-2014-12-05-44-457-PM.png
Full dress, commander
Scan_February-12-2014-12-04-44-478-PM.png
Pattern 1820-30, Full dress, commander, front
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Re: Royal Navy 1787-1795

Unread postby Dorward_Bis » Wed Feb 12, 2014 8:51 pm

SFMRAS, good work))

kjhskj75 wrote:I think it means threads twisted (or braided) together to make a straight, very narrow stripe.


Hmmm... So, taking into consideration the size of an Officer's lace is 1/4" (approx.6,4 mm), the size of this twisted thread should be no more than 3 mm, or approx. 1/8". Of course, it will be visible on a cuff, but will vanish on a distance... It would be great to find out any picture of 1827 midshipman's great coat...
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Re: Royal Navy 1787-1795

Unread postby Dorward_Bis » Wed Feb 12, 2014 9:40 pm

@kjhskj75z - you mean something like this? (see in a full dimension)
Image
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Re: Royal Navy 1787-1795

Unread postby Medic_in_Uniform » Wed Feb 12, 2014 10:29 pm

That seems about right; the twist would simply appear as a very narrow gold ring. Look at the vertical lines of cord twist below each button on the picture of the older Lieutenant's undress coat cuff you have included above -- now imagine the same, but in gold, as a very slim ring around the cuff of the 1827 greatcoat / undress coat.

You may want to have another look at the description of the gold lace or black ribbon worn around the peaked cap at sea:

All Officers may wear in undress at sea, a round jacket without skirts, with their appropriate buttons and a round black hat, with a narrow black silk band and a black buckle, and a black silk or leather cockade, with a loop of the same material and half the width of the lace of their respective coats, or if they have no lace on their coats, of black silk ribbon (except Midshipmen, Masters Assistants, and Volunteers, who are to have a loop of gold twist, as before stated) or a blue cloth cap, with a band round it, of half the width and material of the lace of their coats; Officers who have no lace to their coats, who now wear gold bands, may have a band of gold lace, half an inch wide, round their caps; other Officers are to wear such bands as at present.


I suspect that you might need to make the hatband gold lace a bit more narrow for the junior ranks!

Apart from that, these look good!

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Re: Royal Navy 1787-1795

Unread postby J.T. Broderick » Thu Feb 13, 2014 3:02 am

kjhskj75 wrote:On this subject, last year I drew up this site:

http://www.kjhskj75z.talktalk.net/rn-uniform/

The illustrations are not very good. (my own work)

Any comments ?


That's really great. It's nice to have all that info compiled in one place, and the illustrations help the text from being too abstract. I've bookmarked it! One suggestion I'd make is that on the flag officers' undress cuffs with buttons, the rank lace cover the long buttonholes.

Speaking of which, "twist" meant a narrow cord which was often used on the edges of buttonholes, for cuff buttons, the old broad lapels, midshipman/cadet collars etc. One-eighth inch is about right. Gold twist would be a similar narrow cord of gold. Basically the same as gold braid, but basically round in cross-section, while braid would be more oval and lace would be flat.

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Re: Royal Navy 1787-1795

Unread postby Dorward_Bis » Thu Feb 13, 2014 2:21 pm

Well, thanks a lot to all colleagues. Therefore, taking into consideration all the mentioned above, the final "great coat 1827 RN officers version" would be something like this:
Image

There is a visible difference in a size of cap bands: for Flag-Officers is 1" (the standard lace for a uniforms is 2"), for Commanders/Captains is 0,75" (standard 1,5") and for Lieutenants/Midshipmen/Mates is 0,5" (standard for a Lieutenant is 1", and for Midshipman/Mate the cap band is 0,5" by default).

More over, thanking to the difference in cap band sizes you can tell a Captain from a Commodore (0,75" vs 1,0").
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Re: Royal Navy 1787-1795

Unread postby Medic_in_Uniform » Fri Feb 14, 2014 1:34 am

That looks good. smilies-15

What fascinates me about this is tracking the evolution of the RN uniform and insignia from the mid-1700s right through to today. It's interesting to see how the origins of some of the rank distinction markings were established relatively early in the process.

The most recent changes to the flag officer insignia a few years ago may have given the RN "parity" with their USN counterparts and made ease of recognition simpler but, particularly as I look at the history, I still think it's a shame that we lost the previously unchanged tradition of one, two and three stars for Rear Admiral, Vice-Admiral and Admiral, respectively. That arrangement of stars had survived for just over two hundred years when the sudden insignia inflation occurred!
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Re: Royal Navy 1787-1795

Unread postby Luke2 » Sat Feb 01, 2014 3:45 pm

RN War of 1812.png
I don't think than petty officers and men had any special rank insignia, since they didn't have any proper uniforms. The illustration just show a generic seamen's dress, that would only have been worn if they ever were allowed shore leave (something the Captain was extremely reluctant to give, since British sailors - mostly being pressed men, earning substantially less than in the merchant marine - would run away as soon as they had any opportunity).

The illustration is from a very interesting site (in French) about the war of 1812: http://history-uniforms.over-blog.com/s ... al%20navy/

Lots of illustrations of British, Canadian and US uniforms.
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Re: Royal Navy 1787-1795

Unread postby Dorward_Bis » Sat Feb 01, 2014 4:19 pm

Hmmm... There are several contradictions between the picture you demonstrated in your last post and descriptions in http://www.rmg.co.uk/researchers/librar ... Collection .

First of all, VADm in that period had 2 not 1 star - 1 star had a RAdm. Secondly - from the text of the National Maritime Museum, concerning uniform changes 1812-1825: "Captains and commanders both wore two epaulettes: captains over three years' seniority with a silver crown and anchor, captains under three years with a silver anchor, commanders plain. Lieutenants' dress uniform was the same as captains but without any lace and with one plain epaulette on the right shoulder. Undress uniform for captains, commanders and lieutenants was the same as the 1795 captains' undress uniform but with the same buttons and epaulettes as in full dress". But the French picture shows something contradictory to this description. And (this is not so inportant, as I guess) as I know the traditional RN admiral's star was not 5-pointed but 8-pointed.
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Re: Royal Navy 1787-1795

Unread postby Luke2 » Sat Feb 01, 2014 5:10 pm

You are absolutely right about that. I mostly furnished the image in order to illustrate a generic seamen's uniform. But it’s good of you to point out the inaccuracies that exist. I did not even notice them. And I do believe that the difference between a five-point and eight-point star is an important one.
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Re: Royal Navy 1787-1795

Unread postby SFMRAS » Sun Feb 02, 2014 12:29 am

It's probable that the artist is French and simply based it off of a French general officer's rank insignia.

I have a book on British rank insignia, and would be willing to supply descriptions, and if I can get my scanner working, images.
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Re: Royal Navy 1787-1795

Unread postby Dorward_Bis » Sun Feb 02, 2014 12:41 pm

SFMRAS wrote:It's probable that the artist is French and simply based it off of a French general officer's rank insignia.

I have a book on British rank insignia, and would be willing to supply descriptions, and if I can get my scanner working, images.


Well, but as soon as RN insignia had nothing common with French ones of that period, the artist should at least look at some historical source - thanks Internet, we have such an opportunity))

Good idea, colleague SFMRAS - would be great to see your scans.

Now, basing on some previous pictures and some additional descriptions (thanking to colleague Luke 2, first of all) I've made a set of RN uniforms of the discussed period - http://www.uniforminsignia.org/?option= ... esult=3498 . I suppose the warrant's uniform is correct as well.
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Re: Royal Navy 1787-1795

Unread postby SFMRAS » Sun Feb 02, 2014 4:28 pm

Dorward_Bis wrote:
SFMRAS wrote:It's probable that the artist is French and simply based it off of a French general officer's rank insignia.

I have a book on British rank insignia, and would be willing to supply descriptions, and if I can get my scanner working, images.


Well, but as soon as RN insignia had nothing common with French ones of that period, the artist should at least look at some historical source - thanks Internet, we have such an opportunity))

Good idea, colleague SFMRAS - would be great to see your scans.

Now, basing on some previous pictures and some additional descriptions (thanking to colleague Luke 2, first of all) I've made a set of RN uniforms of the discussed period - http://www.uniforminsignia.org/?option= ... esult=3498 . I suppose the warrant's uniform is correct as well.

I've seen it happen before. A lot of description of rank insignia are generic; s colonel has three stars (no mention of points,) or a major wears three bars (no mention of length, or width,) just generic descriptions. Now that I think of it, it could also be a limitation of the program s/he used.

Thanks, I'll get on the scanning later today.
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Unread postby Luke2 » Sun Feb 02, 2014 5:29 pm

Hallo Dmitriy: Here is something else that will test your artistic skill./Luke

Surgeons
Full Dress: Coat the same as the Physician with the Exception of Gold Lace, White cloth Waistcoat and Breeches, plain Hat. Surgeons of Hospitals to wear two embroidered Button-holes on the Collar; Surgeons of Ship's, one. Undress: Coat the same as the Physician, but without Buttons on Cuffs or Pockets, Waistcoat and Breeches of white or blue cloth, as may be convenient.

http://www.rmg.co.uk/researchers/librar ... Collection

Surgeon full dress 1807.jpg
Surgeon full dress 1897

Surgeon full dress collar 1807.jpg
Ship's Surgeon: One embroidered Button-hole

Surgeon's hat 1807.jpg
Surgeon's hat 1807
Surgeon's hat 1807.jpg (5.1 KiB) Viewed 15318 times
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Re: Royal Navy 1787-1795

Unread postby Dorward_Bis » Sun Feb 02, 2014 8:53 pm

Luke, thanks a lot for an interesting info)).

I think it would be interesting indeed to make a separate gallery of XVIII and XIX centuries enlisted, NCOs and warrants uniforms, because most of sources I acquainted with are devoted to commissioned officers uniforms and rank insignias.
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Re: Royal Navy 1787-1795

Unread postby SFMRAS » Mon Feb 03, 2014 5:35 am

Apologies for the crappy pictures, but I had to scan them with my mouse/scanner hybrid.
The images were over two pages, with the ranks in descending order.
Assuming the pictures are in order, there should be five ranks on the top of the first, and six atop the second one.
First image should be:
Admiral of the Fleet, Admiral, Vice-Admiral, Rear Admiral, Commodore.
The second should be:
Captain over 3 years, Captain under 3 years, Commander, Lieutenant over 8 years, Lieutenant, Mate.
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rnoff (1).png
rnoff (2).png
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Re: Royal Navy 1787-1795

Unread postby Dorward_Bis » Mon Feb 03, 2014 11:21 am

Thanks, SFMRAS))

I've decided to combine your pictures into one - it is more suitable to work with it.
Image
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Re: Royal Navy 1787-1795

Unread postby SFMRAS » Mon Feb 03, 2014 7:05 pm

Dorward_Bis wrote:Thanks, SFMRAS))

I've decided to combine your pictures into one - it is more suitable to work with it.
Image

Your welcome. And thank you for combining them. I had intended to, but after probably a dozen tries in scanning it, the one time I got around to combining it, I ended up realizing that the two scans had problems, leading me to have to rescan them again! smilies-20 smilies-20

I believe there are epaulettes on one of the following pages, and if not, then in another book. I'll get around to scanning later today/early tomorrow. Stay tuned! smilies-01
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Re: Royal Navy 1787-1795

Unread postby Dorward_Bis » Mon Feb 03, 2014 8:35 pm

Great! Thanks, mate))
And it would be great too if you could find out any pictures of naval uniforms for all (if possible) or at least most of periods since 1825(1827) till 1891 - I tried to do this by myself but failed, because I could find some pictures and photos only which do not reflect necessary details of uniforms - I mean, number of buttons, cuff insignia, laces, collar insignia, hats etc. So, if such an information is contained in your books and you could share it with me, I would be incredibly thankful))
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Re: Royal Navy 1787-1795

Unread postby Dorward_Bis » Tue Feb 04, 2014 8:19 am

Btw - right now I'm watching again my favorite British serial "Hornblower" - looks like their navy uniform is very authentic. Of course there is some difference between what is shown in museums and in this movie, but not so significant. Period of Regulations 1795-1812.
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Re: Royal Navy 1787-1795

Unread postby ChrisWI » Tue Feb 04, 2014 5:17 pm

Dorward_Bis wrote:Btw - right now I'm watching again my favorite British serial "Hornblower" - looks like their navy uniform is very authentic. Of course there is some difference between what is shown in museums and in this movie, but not so significant. Period of Regulations 1795-1812.

Very good show, it's a shame it was cancelled. Ioan Grufford was amazing in the role smilies-33

Pavel's website depicts the dress uniform while in the show they mainly wore the undress uniform (ie: with the white lapel piping for Lieutenants).
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Re: Royal Navy 1787-1795

Unread postby Dorward_Bis » Tue Feb 04, 2014 6:30 pm

ChrisWI wrote:[Pavel's website depicts the dress uniform while in the show they mainly wore the undress uniform (ie: with the white lapel piping for Lieutenants).


That's right - all uniforms depicted on the website are dress uniforms. Now I intend to make undress uniforms of same periods - the difference will be visible.
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Re: Royal Navy 1787-1795

Unread postby SFMRAS » Tue Feb 04, 2014 6:53 pm

Dorward_Bis wrote:Great! Thanks, mate))
And it would be great too if you could find out any pictures of naval uniforms for all (if possible) or at least most of periods since 1825(1827) till 1891 - I tried to do this by myself but failed, because I could find some pictures and photos only which do not reflect necessary details of uniforms - I mean, number of buttons, cuff insignia, laces, collar insignia, hats etc. So, if such an information is contained in your books and you could share it with me, I would be incredibly thankful))

The color photos and illustrations are from Dressed to Kill by Amy Miller.
The black and white one is from Badges and Insignia of the British Armed Services by W.E. May, W.Y. Carmen, and John Tanner, the same place as the rank charts. I can't find epaulettes illustrations of the RN in the Badges book, but did find one in DtK.
I've included cuff details.
There are more photos to be scanned, but I'll get to them later.
Apologies for the crappy qualities of some of those scans
Attachments
Scan_February-4-2014-12-05-28-559-PM.png
Scan_February-4-2014-12-03-18-730-PM.png
Scan_February-4-2014-12-01-27-886-PM.png
Scan_February-4-2014-12-00-25-924-PM.png
Scan_February-4-2014-11-59-25-968-AM.png
Scan_February-4-2014-11-57-34-265-AM.png
Scan_February-4-2014-11-56-12-339-AM.png
Scan_February-4-2014-11-55-15-195-AM.png
Scan_February-4-2014-11-53-30-391-AM.png
Scan_February-4-2014-11-46-40-468-AM.png
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Re: Royal Navy 1787-1795

Unread postby SFMRAS » Tue Feb 04, 2014 7:00 pm

And one more post, since I can only post ten photos per post. These proved to be almost as difficult as my first scan. smilies-20
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Scan_February-4-2014-12-27-05-036-PM.png
Scan_February-4-2014-12-24-31-731-PM.png
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Re: Royal Navy 1787-1795

Unread postby Dorward_Bis » Wed Feb 05, 2014 9:29 am

Invaluable info, my friend)) Pictures of Outfit allow to draw not just a "generic uniform" but something more specific - at least you can measure sizes and dimensions of laces, buttons etc...
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Re: Royal Navy 1787-1795

Unread postby Luke2 » Wed Feb 05, 2014 6:04 pm

Full dress coat - cuff detail, Royal Naval uniform_pattern 1856.jpg
Full dress uniform, Royal Naval uniform: pattern 1856
Full dress uniform, Royal Naval uniform_pattern 1856 2.jpg
Full dress uniform, Royal Naval uniform: pattern 1856
Full dress uniform, Royal Naval uniform_pattern 1856.jpg
Full dress uniform, Royal Naval uniform: pattern 1856
Full dress coat, Royal Naval uniform_possibly pattern 1856-1891.jpg
Full dress coat: possibly pattern 1856-1891
Full dress coat - back, Royal Naval uniform_possibly pattern 1856-1891.jpg
Full dress coat: possibly pattern 1856-1891


Source: Royal Museums Greenwich

http://prints.rmg.co.uk/art/515143/Full ... ly_pattern
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Royal Navy Purser

Unread postby Luke2 » Wed Feb 05, 2014 6:13 pm

Royal Navy Purser 4.jpg
Royal Navy Purser 3.jpg
Royal Navy Purser 2.jpg
Rank insignia: White as a branch colour?
Royal Navy Purser 1.jpg
Button
Full dress tail coat and cocked hat worn by Jeremiah Linde Jones, Royal Navy Purser

Unclear pattern, but obviously early 19th century

Contributed by: Braidwood Museum

Source: Australian Dress Register

http://www.australiandressregister.org/garment/480/
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Textual Sources

Unread postby Luke2 » Wed Feb 05, 2014 6:32 pm

Textual Sources

Officer’s Uniforms of the British Navy

http://www.janeausten.co.uk/officers-un ... tish-navy/

Overview, not much details; early 19th century

Uniform regulations 30th October 1877

http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.anc ... rm_RN.html

Detailed, with rank insignia; no illustrations.

See also: http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.anc ... Naval.html

Index to other pertinent sites including "Dress Regulations for Royal Marine Officers"

Naval Uniforms

http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.anc ... ml#Ratings

Overwiev, more detailed, no illustrations; from 1849
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Re: Royal Navy 1787-1795

Unread postby SFMRAS » Wed Feb 05, 2014 8:31 pm

Luke2 wrote:
Full dress coat - cuff detail, Royal Naval uniform_pattern 1856.jpg
Full dress uniform, Royal Naval uniform_pattern 1856 2.jpg
Full dress uniform, Royal Naval uniform_pattern 1856.jpg
Full dress coat, Royal Naval uniform_possibly pattern 1856-1891.jpg
Full dress coat - back, Royal Naval uniform_possibly pattern 1856-1891.jpg


Source: Royal Museums Greenwich

http://prints.rmg.co.uk/art/515143/Full ... ly_pattern

These uniforms are similar to the Pattern 1827-30, as per Amy Miller's DtK. Per the blurb 'The primary difference between ... 1827 ... [and] 1843 is the white slash and blue cuff ... n the latter.
Curiously, the picture is labeled 'Commander,' but the cuffs appear to have a [i]Commodore's
braid. The only differences I can tell from the front of the Admiral you posted is the fact that the 'commander's' ring cuff forms an 'L' at the cuff, the gold stripe at the bottom of the tunic, and the bottom two buttons being plain. Other photos with a similar cuff detail is labeled as an 'Admiral' in the book, so maybe that's in the Regulations?
I'll scan the photos later, although most of your posts appear to have them already in it. I recognized the photos when I got the book from some websites I visited, but I wasn't aware of any other sites.
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Re: Royal Navy 1787-1795

Unread postby SFMRAS » Wed Feb 05, 2014 8:37 pm

Dorward_Bis wrote:Thanks, SFMRAS))

I've decided to combine your pictures into one - it is more suitable to work with it.
Image

I just noticed something:
Immediately above the 'Captains 3+ years' text, the insignia is incorrect. Instead of sporting a crown, a star, and an anchor, it just shows a crown and an anchor. I think that's the only error, but I can barely keep my eyes open, so I could be wrong.
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RN Purser uniform pattern 1833

Unread postby Luke2 » Wed Feb 05, 2014 9:21 pm

Pursers & Captain's Clerk.jpg
Pursers and Captain's Clerk
Royal Naval uniform for Purser pattern 1833.jpg
RN Purser full dress pattern 1833


Sources:

http://collections.rmg.co.uk/collection ... 71431.html

http://prints.rmg.co.uk/art/504563/Cost ... ains_Clerk
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Re: Royal Navy 1787-1795

Unread postby Dorward_Bis » Thu Feb 06, 2014 5:05 pm

Thanks, Luke - it becomes more clear gradually concerning uniform details of that period. Good work, colleague))

Another moment I'd like to discuss: in various sources I've found two different shapes of RN epaulets which looked like being coexistent. I wonder if they had the same status, or one of them was used with an undress uniform and another with a full dress.
Image

I've made this picture to illustrate my idea. Looks like # 1 was for undress uniforms whereas # 2 and # 3 - for full dresses. Besides, it should be a difference in usage for ## 2 and 3 because # 2 is smooth and #3 is with 2 longitudinal narrow
stripes. Though may be not.

Any idea mates?
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Re: Royal Navy 1787-1795

Unread postby Luke2 » Fri Feb 07, 2014 3:43 pm

Unfortunately, no. I have three books about the Royal Navy 1793-1815, but non of them give anything but a superficial introduction to uniforms.

I once owned this book, bought over forty years ago, but its no longer in my possession. If one could find it in a library, it contains a lot of information.

Mollo.jpg
UNIFORMS OF THE ROYAL NAVY DURING THE NAPOLEONIC WARS.

John Mollo.

Published by London: Hugh Evelyn 1965 1st prtg., 1965
Mollo.jpg (11.51 KiB) Viewed 14651 times

Mollo Midshipman.jpg
This is the type of illustrations shown in the book, together with textual information.
Mollo Midshipman.jpg (16.72 KiB) Viewed 14648 times

The frames are not original; someone has ripped out a page, and made it into an item sold separately.
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Master's Mate 1810

Unread postby Luke2 » Sun Feb 09, 2014 9:24 pm

Master's Mate 1810.jpg
Master's Mate 1810.jpg (13.54 KiB) Viewed 14548 times

The illustration showing the uniform of a Master's Mate as it was in 1810 is taken from the book Nelson's Navy written by Philip Haythornethwaite and William Younghusband and published by Osprey.
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Royal Navy epaulettes

Unread postby Luke2 » Sun Feb 09, 2014 9:44 pm

Pair of 20th Century Royal Navy Full Dress Epaulettes.jpg
Pair of 20th Century Royal Navy Full Dress Epaulettes
http://www.tennants.co.uk/Catalogue/Lots/130754.aspx

Royal Naval uniform pattern 1795.jpg
Royal Naval uniform pattern 1795
Pair of admiral's epaulettes, belonging to Admiral Sir William Cornwallis 1744-1819. Each epaulette has stars missing. The outer row has 566.42 mm bullions.
http://collections.rmg.co.uk/collections/objects/71249.html


Royal Naval uniform pattern 1795-1812.jpg
Royal Naval uniform pattern 1795-1812
http://prints.rmg.co.uk/art/509949/Royal_Naval_uniform_pattern_1795-1812

Dmitriy: Are you sure your three epaulette types are contemporaneous? /Luke
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RN epaulettes ca 1898

Unread postby Luke2 » Sun Feb 09, 2014 10:00 pm

the_british_navy_stenzel_epaulettes.jpg
RN epaulettes ca 1898


http://camberpete.co.uk/Pre_WW1_Pages/t ... enzel.html

Sub-Lieutenant should also be Chief Boatswain and Chief Gunner.
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Re: Royal Navy 1787-1795

Unread postby Luke2 » Sun Feb 09, 2014 10:07 pm

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Re: Royal Navy epaulettes

Unread postby Dorward_Bis » Sun Feb 09, 2014 10:42 pm

Luke2 wrote:Dmitriy: Are you sure your three epaulette types are contemporaneous? /Luke


Looks like I'm wrong, Luke - it seems that #2(3) is much later version than # 1. You are right, mate.

And thanks for other plates and pictures - some of them are familiar, but several are quite new for me. Thanks))
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Re: Royal Navy 1787-1795

Unread postby kjhskj75 » Mon Feb 10, 2014 7:11 pm

On this subject, last year I drew up this site:

http://www.kjhskj75z.talktalk.net/rn-uniform/

The illustrations are not very good. (my own work)

Any comments ?
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Re: Royal Navy 1787-1795

Unread postby Dorward_Bis » Mon Feb 10, 2014 8:25 pm

kjhskj75 wrote:On this subject, last year I drew up this site:

http://www.kjhskj75z.talktalk.net/rn-uniform/

The illustrations are not very good. (my own work)

Any comments ?


Great work, colleague)) A very useful and valuable information, including illustrations. May we use this for our uniforms and insignias plates?
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Re: Royal Navy 1787-1795

Unread postby Dorward_Bis » Mon Feb 10, 2014 8:55 pm

One more moment, dear Mr.kjhskj75 - concerning stars' location on admirals (except the Admiral of the Fleet) epaulets: you had shown them for Adm and VAdm being located with two lower stars horizontally within a crescent (http://www.kjhskj75z.talktalk.net/rn-un ... tml#jacket). But as I remember in that period for RAdm, VAdm and Admiral all stars were straightened up along same longitudinal line and became a "triangle" in 1846 only when all Admirals gained crossed sword and baton with a crown over them additionally to the stars.
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Re: Royal Navy 1787-1795

Unread postby Luke2 » Mon Feb 10, 2014 9:22 pm

I am glad if I can make some kind of contribution, since I do not know how to make the drawings; I suppose you need a good program, knowledge and experience.

/Luke
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Re: Royal Navy 1787-1795

Unread postby kjhskj75 » Mon Feb 10, 2014 11:51 pm

Dorward_Bis wrote:One more moment, dear Mr.kjhskj75 - concerning stars' location on admirals (except the Admiral of the Fleet) epaulets: you had shown them for Adm and VAdm being located with two lower stars horizontally within a crescent (http://www.kjhskj75z.talktalk.net/rn-un ... tml#jacket). But as I remember in that period for RAdm, VAdm and Admiral all stars were straightened up along same longitudinal line and became a "triangle" in 1846 only when all Admirals gained crossed sword and baton with a crown over them additionally to the stars.


I think you may well be right there - this would be consistent with the table in "May, Carman & Tanner".

You are welcome to use the images, my only concern is their low quality, the stars, crowns and anchors do not bear any close similarity to those actually used, they are just images I found on the net.
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Re: Royal Navy 1787-1795

Unread postby Dorward_Bis » Tue Feb 11, 2014 3:38 pm

So, basing on Regulations of 1827 and some other materials shown by Mr.kjhskj75 and Luke2, the RN officer's uniform of that period should be something like this (a greatcoat version):
Image

This is a Captain (for both 3- and 3+ years)
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Re: Royal Navy 1787-1795

Unread postby kjhskj75 » Tue Feb 11, 2014 4:59 pm

Dorward_Bis wrote:So, basing on Regulations of 1827 and some other materials shown by Mr.kjhskj75 and Luke2, the RN officer's uniform of that period should be something like this (a greatcoat version):

This is a Captain (for both 3- and 3+ years)


Looks about right - see the guy on the left in this picture:

http://collections.rmg.co.uk/collection ... 28397.html
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Re: Royal Navy 1787-1795

Unread postby Medic_in_Uniform » Wed Feb 12, 2014 12:38 pm

kjhskj75 wrote:On this subject, last year I drew up this site:

http://www.kjhskj75z.talktalk.net/rn-uniform/

The illustrations are not very good. (my own work)

Any comments ?


I've been watching this thread develop and grow with some interest but haven't had the time to comment until now.

@kjhskj75z: that's pretty good actually -- and very helpful too. It's very useful to have an online resource that allows quick textual and visual reference. The illustrations are obviously not an exact representation of a the physical historical insignia but, honestly, that *really* doesn't matter: they are perfect for giving a quick-check visual representation of who wore what in each subsequent period of RN uniform development. Thank you for sharing your work!

I've been meaning to do something like that for ages but really just don't have the time to commit to that amount of work at the moment. I'm therefore very glad that to see that someone else has done it!

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Re: Royal Navy 1787-1795

Unread postby Dorward_Bis » Wed Feb 12, 2014 5:03 pm

This is an RN officers' line according to Regulations 1827 (a great coat version).

Image

I've strong doubts concerning Midshipman's (Mate's) insignia - according to the description, "Mates and Midshipmen wearing such coats, are to be distinguished by one row of gold twist on each cuff". But which kind of a "gold twist" - no idea except what I've shown.
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Re: Royal Navy 1787-1795

Unread postby kjhskj75 » Wed Feb 12, 2014 6:01 pm

Dorward_Bis wrote:I've strong doubts concerning Midshipman's (Mate's) insignia - according to the description, "Mates and Midshipmen wearing such coats, are to be distinguished by one row of gold twist on each cuff". But which kind of a "gold twist" - no idea except what I've shown.


I think it means threads twisted (or braided) together to make a straight, very narrow stripe.
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Re: Royal Navy 1787-1795

Unread postby SFMRAS » Wed Feb 12, 2014 7:06 pm

This scanning project is proving more difficult than I first thought! I had to resort to photographing some of the pictures; that was even more difficult at times!
Attachments
GEDC0214.JPG
Pattern 1830-43, lieutenant,front.
GEDC0215.JPG
Pattern 1830-43, lieutenant,rear.
GEDC0217.JPG
Rear view of the previously posted Purser uniform, Pattern 1830-43?
Scan_February-12-2014-12-16-00-773-PM.png
This one didn't come out well, but it's the cuff of a Pattern 1830-43. There should be a second button below the smaller side one.
Scan_February-12-2014-12-14-04-362-PM.png
Midshipman, rear
Scan_February-12-2014-12-12-31-799-PM.png
Midshipman, front
Scan_February-12-2014-12-10-02-751-PM.png
Scan_February-12-2014-12-08-53-042-PM.png
Full dress, commander, trousers
Scan_February-12-2014-12-05-44-457-PM.png
Full dress, commander
Scan_February-12-2014-12-04-44-478-PM.png
Pattern 1820-30, Full dress, commander, front
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Re: Royal Navy 1787-1795

Unread postby Dorward_Bis » Wed Feb 12, 2014 8:51 pm

SFMRAS, good work))

kjhskj75 wrote:I think it means threads twisted (or braided) together to make a straight, very narrow stripe.


Hmmm... So, taking into consideration the size of an Officer's lace is 1/4" (approx.6,4 mm), the size of this twisted thread should be no more than 3 mm, or approx. 1/8". Of course, it will be visible on a cuff, but will vanish on a distance... It would be great to find out any picture of 1827 midshipman's great coat...
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Re: Royal Navy 1787-1795

Unread postby Dorward_Bis » Wed Feb 12, 2014 9:40 pm

@kjhskj75z - you mean something like this? (see in a full dimension)
Image
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Re: Royal Navy 1787-1795

Unread postby Medic_in_Uniform » Wed Feb 12, 2014 10:29 pm

That seems about right; the twist would simply appear as a very narrow gold ring. Look at the vertical lines of cord twist below each button on the picture of the older Lieutenant's undress coat cuff you have included above -- now imagine the same, but in gold, as a very slim ring around the cuff of the 1827 greatcoat / undress coat.

You may want to have another look at the description of the gold lace or black ribbon worn around the peaked cap at sea:

All Officers may wear in undress at sea, a round jacket without skirts, with their appropriate buttons and a round black hat, with a narrow black silk band and a black buckle, and a black silk or leather cockade, with a loop of the same material and half the width of the lace of their respective coats, or if they have no lace on their coats, of black silk ribbon (except Midshipmen, Masters Assistants, and Volunteers, who are to have a loop of gold twist, as before stated) or a blue cloth cap, with a band round it, of half the width and material of the lace of their coats; Officers who have no lace to their coats, who now wear gold bands, may have a band of gold lace, half an inch wide, round their caps; other Officers are to wear such bands as at present.


I suspect that you might need to make the hatband gold lace a bit more narrow for the junior ranks!

Apart from that, these look good!

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Re: Royal Navy 1787-1795

Unread postby J.T. Broderick » Thu Feb 13, 2014 3:02 am

kjhskj75 wrote:On this subject, last year I drew up this site:

http://www.kjhskj75z.talktalk.net/rn-uniform/

The illustrations are not very good. (my own work)

Any comments ?


That's really great. It's nice to have all that info compiled in one place, and the illustrations help the text from being too abstract. I've bookmarked it! One suggestion I'd make is that on the flag officers' undress cuffs with buttons, the rank lace cover the long buttonholes.

Speaking of which, "twist" meant a narrow cord which was often used on the edges of buttonholes, for cuff buttons, the old broad lapels, midshipman/cadet collars etc. One-eighth inch is about right. Gold twist would be a similar narrow cord of gold. Basically the same as gold braid, but basically round in cross-section, while braid would be more oval and lace would be flat.

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Re: Royal Navy 1787-1795

Unread postby Dorward_Bis » Thu Feb 13, 2014 2:21 pm

Well, thanks a lot to all colleagues. Therefore, taking into consideration all the mentioned above, the final "great coat 1827 RN officers version" would be something like this:
Image

There is a visible difference in a size of cap bands: for Flag-Officers is 1" (the standard lace for a uniforms is 2"), for Commanders/Captains is 0,75" (standard 1,5") and for Lieutenants/Midshipmen/Mates is 0,5" (standard for a Lieutenant is 1", and for Midshipman/Mate the cap band is 0,5" by default).

More over, thanking to the difference in cap band sizes you can tell a Captain from a Commodore (0,75" vs 1,0").
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Re: Royal Navy 1787-1795

Unread postby Medic_in_Uniform » Fri Feb 14, 2014 1:34 am

That looks good. smilies-15

What fascinates me about this is tracking the evolution of the RN uniform and insignia from the mid-1700s right through to today. It's interesting to see how the origins of some of the rank distinction markings were established relatively early in the process.

The most recent changes to the flag officer insignia a few years ago may have given the RN "parity" with their USN counterparts and made ease of recognition simpler but, particularly as I look at the history, I still think it's a shame that we lost the previously unchanged tradition of one, two and three stars for Rear Admiral, Vice-Admiral and Admiral, respectively. That arrangement of stars had survived for just over two hundred years when the sudden insignia inflation occurred!
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Re: Royal Navy 1787-1795

Unread postby Luke2 » Sat Feb 01, 2014 3:45 pm

RN War of 1812.png
I don't think than petty officers and men had any special rank insignia, since they didn't have any proper uniforms. The illustration just show a generic seamen's dress, that would only have been worn if they ever were allowed shore leave (something the Captain was extremely reluctant to give, since British sailors - mostly being pressed men, earning substantially less than in the merchant marine - would run away as soon as they had any opportunity).

The illustration is from a very interesting site (in French) about the war of 1812: http://history-uniforms.over-blog.com/s ... al%20navy/

Lots of illustrations of British, Canadian and US uniforms.
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Re: Royal Navy 1787-1795

Unread postby Dorward_Bis » Sat Feb 01, 2014 4:19 pm

Hmmm... There are several contradictions between the picture you demonstrated in your last post and descriptions in http://www.rmg.co.uk/researchers/librar ... Collection .

First of all, VADm in that period had 2 not 1 star - 1 star had a RAdm. Secondly - from the text of the National Maritime Museum, concerning uniform changes 1812-1825: "Captains and commanders both wore two epaulettes: captains over three years' seniority with a silver crown and anchor, captains under three years with a silver anchor, commanders plain. Lieutenants' dress uniform was the same as captains but without any lace and with one plain epaulette on the right shoulder. Undress uniform for captains, commanders and lieutenants was the same as the 1795 captains' undress uniform but with the same buttons and epaulettes as in full dress". But the French picture shows something contradictory to this description. And (this is not so inportant, as I guess) as I know the traditional RN admiral's star was not 5-pointed but 8-pointed.
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Re: Royal Navy 1787-1795

Unread postby Luke2 » Sat Feb 01, 2014 5:10 pm

You are absolutely right about that. I mostly furnished the image in order to illustrate a generic seamen's uniform. But it’s good of you to point out the inaccuracies that exist. I did not even notice them. And I do believe that the difference between a five-point and eight-point star is an important one.
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Re: Royal Navy 1787-1795

Unread postby SFMRAS » Sun Feb 02, 2014 12:29 am

It's probable that the artist is French and simply based it off of a French general officer's rank insignia.

I have a book on British rank insignia, and would be willing to supply descriptions, and if I can get my scanner working, images.
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Re: Royal Navy 1787-1795

Unread postby Dorward_Bis » Sun Feb 02, 2014 12:41 pm

SFMRAS wrote:It's probable that the artist is French and simply based it off of a French general officer's rank insignia.

I have a book on British rank insignia, and would be willing to supply descriptions, and if I can get my scanner working, images.


Well, but as soon as RN insignia had nothing common with French ones of that period, the artist should at least look at some historical source - thanks Internet, we have such an opportunity))

Good idea, colleague SFMRAS - would be great to see your scans.

Now, basing on some previous pictures and some additional descriptions (thanking to colleague Luke 2, first of all) I've made a set of RN uniforms of the discussed period - http://www.uniforminsignia.org/?option= ... esult=3498 . I suppose the warrant's uniform is correct as well.
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Re: Royal Navy 1787-1795

Unread postby SFMRAS » Sun Feb 02, 2014 4:28 pm

Dorward_Bis wrote:
SFMRAS wrote:It's probable that the artist is French and simply based it off of a French general officer's rank insignia.

I have a book on British rank insignia, and would be willing to supply descriptions, and if I can get my scanner working, images.


Well, but as soon as RN insignia had nothing common with French ones of that period, the artist should at least look at some historical source - thanks Internet, we have such an opportunity))

Good idea, colleague SFMRAS - would be great to see your scans.

Now, basing on some previous pictures and some additional descriptions (thanking to colleague Luke 2, first of all) I've made a set of RN uniforms of the discussed period - http://www.uniforminsignia.org/?option= ... esult=3498 . I suppose the warrant's uniform is correct as well.

I've seen it happen before. A lot of description of rank insignia are generic; s colonel has three stars (no mention of points,) or a major wears three bars (no mention of length, or width,) just generic descriptions. Now that I think of it, it could also be a limitation of the program s/he used.

Thanks, I'll get on the scanning later today.
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Unread postby Luke2 » Sun Feb 02, 2014 5:29 pm

Hallo Dmitriy: Here is something else that will test your artistic skill./Luke

Surgeons
Full Dress: Coat the same as the Physician with the Exception of Gold Lace, White cloth Waistcoat and Breeches, plain Hat. Surgeons of Hospitals to wear two embroidered Button-holes on the Collar; Surgeons of Ship's, one. Undress: Coat the same as the Physician, but without Buttons on Cuffs or Pockets, Waistcoat and Breeches of white or blue cloth, as may be convenient.

http://www.rmg.co.uk/researchers/librar ... Collection

Surgeon full dress 1807.jpg
Surgeon full dress 1897

Surgeon full dress collar 1807.jpg
Ship's Surgeon: One embroidered Button-hole

Surgeon's hat 1807.jpg
Surgeon's hat 1807
Surgeon's hat 1807.jpg (5.1 KiB) Viewed 15318 times
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Re: Royal Navy 1787-1795

Unread postby Dorward_Bis » Sun Feb 02, 2014 8:53 pm

Luke, thanks a lot for an interesting info)).

I think it would be interesting indeed to make a separate gallery of XVIII and XIX centuries enlisted, NCOs and warrants uniforms, because most of sources I acquainted with are devoted to commissioned officers uniforms and rank insignias.
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Re: Royal Navy 1787-1795

Unread postby SFMRAS » Mon Feb 03, 2014 5:35 am

Apologies for the crappy pictures, but I had to scan them with my mouse/scanner hybrid.
The images were over two pages, with the ranks in descending order.
Assuming the pictures are in order, there should be five ranks on the top of the first, and six atop the second one.
First image should be:
Admiral of the Fleet, Admiral, Vice-Admiral, Rear Admiral, Commodore.
The second should be:
Captain over 3 years, Captain under 3 years, Commander, Lieutenant over 8 years, Lieutenant, Mate.
Attachments
rnoff (1).png
rnoff (2).png
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Re: Royal Navy 1787-1795

Unread postby Dorward_Bis » Mon Feb 03, 2014 11:21 am

Thanks, SFMRAS))

I've decided to combine your pictures into one - it is more suitable to work with it.
Image
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Re: Royal Navy 1787-1795

Unread postby SFMRAS » Mon Feb 03, 2014 7:05 pm

Dorward_Bis wrote:Thanks, SFMRAS))

I've decided to combine your pictures into one - it is more suitable to work with it.
Image

Your welcome. And thank you for combining them. I had intended to, but after probably a dozen tries in scanning it, the one time I got around to combining it, I ended up realizing that the two scans had problems, leading me to have to rescan them again! smilies-20 smilies-20

I believe there are epaulettes on one of the following pages, and if not, then in another book. I'll get around to scanning later today/early tomorrow. Stay tuned! smilies-01
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Re: Royal Navy 1787-1795

Unread postby Dorward_Bis » Mon Feb 03, 2014 8:35 pm

Great! Thanks, mate))
And it would be great too if you could find out any pictures of naval uniforms for all (if possible) or at least most of periods since 1825(1827) till 1891 - I tried to do this by myself but failed, because I could find some pictures and photos only which do not reflect necessary details of uniforms - I mean, number of buttons, cuff insignia, laces, collar insignia, hats etc. So, if such an information is contained in your books and you could share it with me, I would be incredibly thankful))
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Re: Royal Navy 1787-1795

Unread postby Dorward_Bis » Tue Feb 04, 2014 8:19 am

Btw - right now I'm watching again my favorite British serial "Hornblower" - looks like their navy uniform is very authentic. Of course there is some difference between what is shown in museums and in this movie, but not so significant. Period of Regulations 1795-1812.
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Re: Royal Navy 1787-1795

Unread postby ChrisWI » Tue Feb 04, 2014 5:17 pm

Dorward_Bis wrote:Btw - right now I'm watching again my favorite British serial "Hornblower" - looks like their navy uniform is very authentic. Of course there is some difference between what is shown in museums and in this movie, but not so significant. Period of Regulations 1795-1812.

Very good show, it's a shame it was cancelled. Ioan Grufford was amazing in the role smilies-33

Pavel's website depicts the dress uniform while in the show they mainly wore the undress uniform (ie: with the white lapel piping for Lieutenants).
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Re: Royal Navy 1787-1795

Unread postby Dorward_Bis » Tue Feb 04, 2014 6:30 pm

ChrisWI wrote:[Pavel's website depicts the dress uniform while in the show they mainly wore the undress uniform (ie: with the white lapel piping for Lieutenants).


That's right - all uniforms depicted on the website are dress uniforms. Now I intend to make undress uniforms of same periods - the difference will be visible.
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Re: Royal Navy 1787-1795

Unread postby SFMRAS » Tue Feb 04, 2014 6:53 pm

Dorward_Bis wrote:Great! Thanks, mate))
And it would be great too if you could find out any pictures of naval uniforms for all (if possible) or at least most of periods since 1825(1827) till 1891 - I tried to do this by myself but failed, because I could find some pictures and photos only which do not reflect necessary details of uniforms - I mean, number of buttons, cuff insignia, laces, collar insignia, hats etc. So, if such an information is contained in your books and you could share it with me, I would be incredibly thankful))

The color photos and illustrations are from Dressed to Kill by Amy Miller.
The black and white one is from Badges and Insignia of the British Armed Services by W.E. May, W.Y. Carmen, and John Tanner, the same place as the rank charts. I can't find epaulettes illustrations of the RN in the Badges book, but did find one in DtK.
I've included cuff details.
There are more photos to be scanned, but I'll get to them later.
Apologies for the crappy qualities of some of those scans
Attachments
Scan_February-4-2014-12-05-28-559-PM.png
Scan_February-4-2014-12-03-18-730-PM.png
Scan_February-4-2014-12-01-27-886-PM.png
Scan_February-4-2014-12-00-25-924-PM.png
Scan_February-4-2014-11-59-25-968-AM.png
Scan_February-4-2014-11-57-34-265-AM.png
Scan_February-4-2014-11-56-12-339-AM.png
Scan_February-4-2014-11-55-15-195-AM.png
Scan_February-4-2014-11-53-30-391-AM.png
Scan_February-4-2014-11-46-40-468-AM.png
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Re: Royal Navy 1787-1795

Unread postby SFMRAS » Tue Feb 04, 2014 7:00 pm

And one more post, since I can only post ten photos per post. These proved to be almost as difficult as my first scan. smilies-20
Attachments
Scan_February-4-2014-12-27-05-036-PM.png
Scan_February-4-2014-12-24-31-731-PM.png
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Re: Royal Navy 1787-1795

Unread postby Dorward_Bis » Wed Feb 05, 2014 9:29 am

Invaluable info, my friend)) Pictures of Outfit allow to draw not just a "generic uniform" but something more specific - at least you can measure sizes and dimensions of laces, buttons etc...
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Re: Royal Navy 1787-1795

Unread postby Luke2 » Wed Feb 05, 2014 6:04 pm

Full dress coat - cuff detail, Royal Naval uniform_pattern 1856.jpg
Full dress uniform, Royal Naval uniform: pattern 1856
Full dress uniform, Royal Naval uniform_pattern 1856 2.jpg
Full dress uniform, Royal Naval uniform: pattern 1856
Full dress uniform, Royal Naval uniform_pattern 1856.jpg
Full dress uniform, Royal Naval uniform: pattern 1856
Full dress coat, Royal Naval uniform_possibly pattern 1856-1891.jpg
Full dress coat: possibly pattern 1856-1891
Full dress coat - back, Royal Naval uniform_possibly pattern 1856-1891.jpg
Full dress coat: possibly pattern 1856-1891


Source: Royal Museums Greenwich

http://prints.rmg.co.uk/art/515143/Full ... ly_pattern
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Royal Navy Purser

Unread postby Luke2 » Wed Feb 05, 2014 6:13 pm

Royal Navy Purser 4.jpg
Royal Navy Purser 3.jpg
Royal Navy Purser 2.jpg
Rank insignia: White as a branch colour?
Royal Navy Purser 1.jpg
Button
Full dress tail coat and cocked hat worn by Jeremiah Linde Jones, Royal Navy Purser

Unclear pattern, but obviously early 19th century

Contributed by: Braidwood Museum

Source: Australian Dress Register

http://www.australiandressregister.org/garment/480/
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Textual Sources

Unread postby Luke2 » Wed Feb 05, 2014 6:32 pm

Textual Sources

Officer’s Uniforms of the British Navy

http://www.janeausten.co.uk/officers-un ... tish-navy/

Overview, not much details; early 19th century

Uniform regulations 30th October 1877

http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.anc ... rm_RN.html

Detailed, with rank insignia; no illustrations.

See also: http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.anc ... Naval.html

Index to other pertinent sites including "Dress Regulations for Royal Marine Officers"

Naval Uniforms

http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.anc ... ml#Ratings

Overwiev, more detailed, no illustrations; from 1849
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Re: Royal Navy 1787-1795

Unread postby SFMRAS » Wed Feb 05, 2014 8:31 pm

Luke2 wrote:
Full dress coat - cuff detail, Royal Naval uniform_pattern 1856.jpg
Full dress uniform, Royal Naval uniform_pattern 1856 2.jpg
Full dress uniform, Royal Naval uniform_pattern 1856.jpg
Full dress coat, Royal Naval uniform_possibly pattern 1856-1891.jpg
Full dress coat - back, Royal Naval uniform_possibly pattern 1856-1891.jpg


Source: Royal Museums Greenwich

http://prints.rmg.co.uk/art/515143/Full ... ly_pattern

These uniforms are similar to the Pattern 1827-30, as per Amy Miller's DtK. Per the blurb 'The primary difference between ... 1827 ... [and] 1843 is the white slash and blue cuff ... n the latter.
Curiously, the picture is labeled 'Commander,' but the cuffs appear to have a [i]Commodore's
braid. The only differences I can tell from the front of the Admiral you posted is the fact that the 'commander's' ring cuff forms an 'L' at the cuff, the gold stripe at the bottom of the tunic, and the bottom two buttons being plain. Other photos with a similar cuff detail is labeled as an 'Admiral' in the book, so maybe that's in the Regulations?
I'll scan the photos later, although most of your posts appear to have them already in it. I recognized the photos when I got the book from some websites I visited, but I wasn't aware of any other sites.
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Re: Royal Navy 1787-1795

Unread postby SFMRAS » Wed Feb 05, 2014 8:37 pm

Dorward_Bis wrote:Thanks, SFMRAS))

I've decided to combine your pictures into one - it is more suitable to work with it.
Image

I just noticed something:
Immediately above the 'Captains 3+ years' text, the insignia is incorrect. Instead of sporting a crown, a star, and an anchor, it just shows a crown and an anchor. I think that's the only error, but I can barely keep my eyes open, so I could be wrong.
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RN Purser uniform pattern 1833

Unread postby Luke2 » Wed Feb 05, 2014 9:21 pm

Pursers & Captain's Clerk.jpg
Pursers and Captain's Clerk
Royal Naval uniform for Purser pattern 1833.jpg
RN Purser full dress pattern 1833


Sources:

http://collections.rmg.co.uk/collection ... 71431.html

http://prints.rmg.co.uk/art/504563/Cost ... ains_Clerk
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Re: Royal Navy 1787-1795

Unread postby Dorward_Bis » Thu Feb 06, 2014 5:05 pm

Thanks, Luke - it becomes more clear gradually concerning uniform details of that period. Good work, colleague))

Another moment I'd like to discuss: in various sources I've found two different shapes of RN epaulets which looked like being coexistent. I wonder if they had the same status, or one of them was used with an undress uniform and another with a full dress.
Image

I've made this picture to illustrate my idea. Looks like # 1 was for undress uniforms whereas # 2 and # 3 - for full dresses. Besides, it should be a difference in usage for ## 2 and 3 because # 2 is smooth and #3 is with 2 longitudinal narrow
stripes. Though may be not.

Any idea mates?
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Re: Royal Navy 1787-1795

Unread postby Luke2 » Fri Feb 07, 2014 3:43 pm

Unfortunately, no. I have three books about the Royal Navy 1793-1815, but non of them give anything but a superficial introduction to uniforms.

I once owned this book, bought over forty years ago, but its no longer in my possession. If one could find it in a library, it contains a lot of information.

Mollo.jpg
UNIFORMS OF THE ROYAL NAVY DURING THE NAPOLEONIC WARS.

John Mollo.

Published by London: Hugh Evelyn 1965 1st prtg., 1965
Mollo.jpg (11.51 KiB) Viewed 14651 times

Mollo Midshipman.jpg
This is the type of illustrations shown in the book, together with textual information.
Mollo Midshipman.jpg (16.72 KiB) Viewed 14648 times

The frames are not original; someone has ripped out a page, and made it into an item sold separately.
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Master's Mate 1810

Unread postby Luke2 » Sun Feb 09, 2014 9:24 pm

Master's Mate 1810.jpg
Master's Mate 1810.jpg (13.54 KiB) Viewed 14548 times

The illustration showing the uniform of a Master's Mate as it was in 1810 is taken from the book Nelson's Navy written by Philip Haythornethwaite and William Younghusband and published by Osprey.
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Royal Navy epaulettes

Unread postby Luke2 » Sun Feb 09, 2014 9:44 pm

Pair of 20th Century Royal Navy Full Dress Epaulettes.jpg
Pair of 20th Century Royal Navy Full Dress Epaulettes
http://www.tennants.co.uk/Catalogue/Lots/130754.aspx

Royal Naval uniform pattern 1795.jpg
Royal Naval uniform pattern 1795
Pair of admiral's epaulettes, belonging to Admiral Sir William Cornwallis 1744-1819. Each epaulette has stars missing. The outer row has 566.42 mm bullions.
http://collections.rmg.co.uk/collections/objects/71249.html


Royal Naval uniform pattern 1795-1812.jpg
Royal Naval uniform pattern 1795-1812
http://prints.rmg.co.uk/art/509949/Royal_Naval_uniform_pattern_1795-1812

Dmitriy: Are you sure your three epaulette types are contemporaneous? /Luke
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RN epaulettes ca 1898

Unread postby Luke2 » Sun Feb 09, 2014 10:00 pm

the_british_navy_stenzel_epaulettes.jpg
RN epaulettes ca 1898


http://camberpete.co.uk/Pre_WW1_Pages/t ... enzel.html

Sub-Lieutenant should also be Chief Boatswain and Chief Gunner.
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Re: Royal Navy 1787-1795

Unread postby Luke2 » Sun Feb 09, 2014 10:07 pm

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Re: Royal Navy epaulettes

Unread postby Dorward_Bis » Sun Feb 09, 2014 10:42 pm

Luke2 wrote:Dmitriy: Are you sure your three epaulette types are contemporaneous? /Luke


Looks like I'm wrong, Luke - it seems that #2(3) is much later version than # 1. You are right, mate.

And thanks for other plates and pictures - some of them are familiar, but several are quite new for me. Thanks))
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Re: Royal Navy 1787-1795

Unread postby kjhskj75 » Mon Feb 10, 2014 7:11 pm

On this subject, last year I drew up this site:

http://www.kjhskj75z.talktalk.net/rn-uniform/

The illustrations are not very good. (my own work)

Any comments ?
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Re: Royal Navy 1787-1795

Unread postby Dorward_Bis » Mon Feb 10, 2014 8:25 pm

kjhskj75 wrote:On this subject, last year I drew up this site:

http://www.kjhskj75z.talktalk.net/rn-uniform/

The illustrations are not very good. (my own work)

Any comments ?


Great work, colleague)) A very useful and valuable information, including illustrations. May we use this for our uniforms and insignias plates?
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Re: Royal Navy 1787-1795

Unread postby Dorward_Bis » Mon Feb 10, 2014 8:55 pm

One more moment, dear Mr.kjhskj75 - concerning stars' location on admirals (except the Admiral of the Fleet) epaulets: you had shown them for Adm and VAdm being located with two lower stars horizontally within a crescent (http://www.kjhskj75z.talktalk.net/rn-un ... tml#jacket). But as I remember in that period for RAdm, VAdm and Admiral all stars were straightened up along same longitudinal line and became a "triangle" in 1846 only when all Admirals gained crossed sword and baton with a crown over them additionally to the stars.
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Re: Royal Navy 1787-1795

Unread postby Luke2 » Mon Feb 10, 2014 9:22 pm

I am glad if I can make some kind of contribution, since I do not know how to make the drawings; I suppose you need a good program, knowledge and experience.

/Luke
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Re: Royal Navy 1787-1795

Unread postby kjhskj75 » Mon Feb 10, 2014 11:51 pm

Dorward_Bis wrote:One more moment, dear Mr.kjhskj75 - concerning stars' location on admirals (except the Admiral of the Fleet) epaulets: you had shown them for Adm and VAdm being located with two lower stars horizontally within a crescent (http://www.kjhskj75z.talktalk.net/rn-un ... tml#jacket). But as I remember in that period for RAdm, VAdm and Admiral all stars were straightened up along same longitudinal line and became a "triangle" in 1846 only when all Admirals gained crossed sword and baton with a crown over them additionally to the stars.


I think you may well be right there - this would be consistent with the table in "May, Carman & Tanner".

You are welcome to use the images, my only concern is their low quality, the stars, crowns and anchors do not bear any close similarity to those actually used, they are just images I found on the net.
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Re: Royal Navy 1787-1795

Unread postby Dorward_Bis » Tue Feb 11, 2014 3:38 pm

So, basing on Regulations of 1827 and some other materials shown by Mr.kjhskj75 and Luke2, the RN officer's uniform of that period should be something like this (a greatcoat version):
Image

This is a Captain (for both 3- and 3+ years)
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Re: Royal Navy 1787-1795

Unread postby kjhskj75 » Tue Feb 11, 2014 4:59 pm

Dorward_Bis wrote:So, basing on Regulations of 1827 and some other materials shown by Mr.kjhskj75 and Luke2, the RN officer's uniform of that period should be something like this (a greatcoat version):

This is a Captain (for both 3- and 3+ years)


Looks about right - see the guy on the left in this picture:

http://collections.rmg.co.uk/collection ... 28397.html
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Re: Royal Navy 1787-1795

Unread postby Medic_in_Uniform » Wed Feb 12, 2014 12:38 pm

kjhskj75 wrote:On this subject, last year I drew up this site:

http://www.kjhskj75z.talktalk.net/rn-uniform/

The illustrations are not very good. (my own work)

Any comments ?


I've been watching this thread develop and grow with some interest but haven't had the time to comment until now.

@kjhskj75z: that's pretty good actually -- and very helpful too. It's very useful to have an online resource that allows quick textual and visual reference. The illustrations are obviously not an exact representation of a the physical historical insignia but, honestly, that *really* doesn't matter: they are perfect for giving a quick-check visual representation of who wore what in each subsequent period of RN uniform development. Thank you for sharing your work!

I've been meaning to do something like that for ages but really just don't have the time to commit to that amount of work at the moment. I'm therefore very glad that to see that someone else has done it!

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Re: Royal Navy 1787-1795

Unread postby Dorward_Bis » Wed Feb 12, 2014 5:03 pm

This is an RN officers' line according to Regulations 1827 (a great coat version).

Image

I've strong doubts concerning Midshipman's (Mate's) insignia - according to the description, "Mates and Midshipmen wearing such coats, are to be distinguished by one row of gold twist on each cuff". But which kind of a "gold twist" - no idea except what I've shown.
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Re: Royal Navy 1787-1795

Unread postby kjhskj75 » Wed Feb 12, 2014 6:01 pm

Dorward_Bis wrote:I've strong doubts concerning Midshipman's (Mate's) insignia - according to the description, "Mates and Midshipmen wearing such coats, are to be distinguished by one row of gold twist on each cuff". But which kind of a "gold twist" - no idea except what I've shown.


I think it means threads twisted (or braided) together to make a straight, very narrow stripe.
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Re: Royal Navy 1787-1795

Unread postby SFMRAS » Wed Feb 12, 2014 7:06 pm

This scanning project is proving more difficult than I first thought! I had to resort to photographing some of the pictures; that was even more difficult at times!
Attachments
GEDC0214.JPG
Pattern 1830-43, lieutenant,front.
GEDC0215.JPG
Pattern 1830-43, lieutenant,rear.
GEDC0217.JPG
Rear view of the previously posted Purser uniform, Pattern 1830-43?
Scan_February-12-2014-12-16-00-773-PM.png
This one didn't come out well, but it's the cuff of a Pattern 1830-43. There should be a second button below the smaller side one.
Scan_February-12-2014-12-14-04-362-PM.png
Midshipman, rear
Scan_February-12-2014-12-12-31-799-PM.png
Midshipman, front
Scan_February-12-2014-12-10-02-751-PM.png
Scan_February-12-2014-12-08-53-042-PM.png
Full dress, commander, trousers
Scan_February-12-2014-12-05-44-457-PM.png
Full dress, commander
Scan_February-12-2014-12-04-44-478-PM.png
Pattern 1820-30, Full dress, commander, front
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Re: Royal Navy 1787-1795

Unread postby Dorward_Bis » Wed Feb 12, 2014 8:51 pm

SFMRAS, good work))

kjhskj75 wrote:I think it means threads twisted (or braided) together to make a straight, very narrow stripe.


Hmmm... So, taking into consideration the size of an Officer's lace is 1/4" (approx.6,4 mm), the size of this twisted thread should be no more than 3 mm, or approx. 1/8". Of course, it will be visible on a cuff, but will vanish on a distance... It would be great to find out any picture of 1827 midshipman's great coat...
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Re: Royal Navy 1787-1795

Unread postby Dorward_Bis » Wed Feb 12, 2014 9:40 pm

@kjhskj75z - you mean something like this? (see in a full dimension)
Image
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Re: Royal Navy 1787-1795

Unread postby Medic_in_Uniform » Wed Feb 12, 2014 10:29 pm

That seems about right; the twist would simply appear as a very narrow gold ring. Look at the vertical lines of cord twist below each button on the picture of the older Lieutenant's undress coat cuff you have included above -- now imagine the same, but in gold, as a very slim ring around the cuff of the 1827 greatcoat / undress coat.

You may want to have another look at the description of the gold lace or black ribbon worn around the peaked cap at sea:

All Officers may wear in undress at sea, a round jacket without skirts, with their appropriate buttons and a round black hat, with a narrow black silk band and a black buckle, and a black silk or leather cockade, with a loop of the same material and half the width of the lace of their respective coats, or if they have no lace on their coats, of black silk ribbon (except Midshipmen, Masters Assistants, and Volunteers, who are to have a loop of gold twist, as before stated) or a blue cloth cap, with a band round it, of half the width and material of the lace of their coats; Officers who have no lace to their coats, who now wear gold bands, may have a band of gold lace, half an inch wide, round their caps; other Officers are to wear such bands as at present.


I suspect that you might need to make the hatband gold lace a bit more narrow for the junior ranks!

Apart from that, these look good!

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Re: Royal Navy 1787-1795

Unread postby J.T. Broderick » Thu Feb 13, 2014 3:02 am

kjhskj75 wrote:On this subject, last year I drew up this site:

http://www.kjhskj75z.talktalk.net/rn-uniform/

The illustrations are not very good. (my own work)

Any comments ?


That's really great. It's nice to have all that info compiled in one place, and the illustrations help the text from being too abstract. I've bookmarked it! One suggestion I'd make is that on the flag officers' undress cuffs with buttons, the rank lace cover the long buttonholes.

Speaking of which, "twist" meant a narrow cord which was often used on the edges of buttonholes, for cuff buttons, the old broad lapels, midshipman/cadet collars etc. One-eighth inch is about right. Gold twist would be a similar narrow cord of gold. Basically the same as gold braid, but basically round in cross-section, while braid would be more oval and lace would be flat.

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Re: Royal Navy 1787-1795

Unread postby Dorward_Bis » Thu Feb 13, 2014 2:21 pm

Well, thanks a lot to all colleagues. Therefore, taking into consideration all the mentioned above, the final "great coat 1827 RN officers version" would be something like this:
Image

There is a visible difference in a size of cap bands: for Flag-Officers is 1" (the standard lace for a uniforms is 2"), for Commanders/Captains is 0,75" (standard 1,5") and for Lieutenants/Midshipmen/Mates is 0,5" (standard for a Lieutenant is 1", and for Midshipman/Mate the cap band is 0,5" by default).

More over, thanking to the difference in cap band sizes you can tell a Captain from a Commodore (0,75" vs 1,0").
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Re: Royal Navy 1787-1795

Unread postby Medic_in_Uniform » Fri Feb 14, 2014 1:34 am

That looks good. smilies-15

What fascinates me about this is tracking the evolution of the RN uniform and insignia from the mid-1700s right through to today. It's interesting to see how the origins of some of the rank distinction markings were established relatively early in the process.

The most recent changes to the flag officer insignia a few years ago may have given the RN "parity" with their USN counterparts and made ease of recognition simpler but, particularly as I look at the history, I still think it's a shame that we lost the previously unchanged tradition of one, two and three stars for Rear Admiral, Vice-Admiral and Admiral, respectively. That arrangement of stars had survived for just over two hundred years when the sudden insignia inflation occurred!
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Re: Royal Navy 1787-1795

Unread postby Luke2 » Sat Feb 01, 2014 3:45 pm

RN War of 1812.png
I don't think than petty officers and men had any special rank insignia, since they didn't have any proper uniforms. The illustration just show a generic seamen's dress, that would only have been worn if they ever were allowed shore leave (something the Captain was extremely reluctant to give, since British sailors - mostly being pressed men, earning substantially less than in the merchant marine - would run away as soon as they had any opportunity).

The illustration is from a very interesting site (in French) about the war of 1812: http://history-uniforms.over-blog.com/s ... al%20navy/

Lots of illustrations of British, Canadian and US uniforms.
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Re: Royal Navy 1787-1795

Unread postby Dorward_Bis » Sat Feb 01, 2014 4:19 pm

Hmmm... There are several contradictions between the picture you demonstrated in your last post and descriptions in http://www.rmg.co.uk/researchers/librar ... Collection .

First of all, VADm in that period had 2 not 1 star - 1 star had a RAdm. Secondly - from the text of the National Maritime Museum, concerning uniform changes 1812-1825: "Captains and commanders both wore two epaulettes: captains over three years' seniority with a silver crown and anchor, captains under three years with a silver anchor, commanders plain. Lieutenants' dress uniform was the same as captains but without any lace and with one plain epaulette on the right shoulder. Undress uniform for captains, commanders and lieutenants was the same as the 1795 captains' undress uniform but with the same buttons and epaulettes as in full dress". But the French picture shows something contradictory to this description. And (this is not so inportant, as I guess) as I know the traditional RN admiral's star was not 5-pointed but 8-pointed.
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Re: Royal Navy 1787-1795

Unread postby Luke2 » Sat Feb 01, 2014 5:10 pm

You are absolutely right about that. I mostly furnished the image in order to illustrate a generic seamen's uniform. But it’s good of you to point out the inaccuracies that exist. I did not even notice them. And I do believe that the difference between a five-point and eight-point star is an important one.
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Re: Royal Navy 1787-1795

Unread postby SFMRAS » Sun Feb 02, 2014 12:29 am

It's probable that the artist is French and simply based it off of a French general officer's rank insignia.

I have a book on British rank insignia, and would be willing to supply descriptions, and if I can get my scanner working, images.
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Re: Royal Navy 1787-1795

Unread postby Dorward_Bis » Sun Feb 02, 2014 12:41 pm

SFMRAS wrote:It's probable that the artist is French and simply based it off of a French general officer's rank insignia.

I have a book on British rank insignia, and would be willing to supply descriptions, and if I can get my scanner working, images.


Well, but as soon as RN insignia had nothing common with French ones of that period, the artist should at least look at some historical source - thanks Internet, we have such an opportunity))

Good idea, colleague SFMRAS - would be great to see your scans.

Now, basing on some previous pictures and some additional descriptions (thanking to colleague Luke 2, first of all) I've made a set of RN uniforms of the discussed period - http://www.uniforminsignia.org/?option= ... esult=3498 . I suppose the warrant's uniform is correct as well.
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Re: Royal Navy 1787-1795

Unread postby SFMRAS » Sun Feb 02, 2014 4:28 pm

Dorward_Bis wrote:
SFMRAS wrote:It's probable that the artist is French and simply based it off of a French general officer's rank insignia.

I have a book on British rank insignia, and would be willing to supply descriptions, and if I can get my scanner working, images.


Well, but as soon as RN insignia had nothing common with French ones of that period, the artist should at least look at some historical source - thanks Internet, we have such an opportunity))

Good idea, colleague SFMRAS - would be great to see your scans.

Now, basing on some previous pictures and some additional descriptions (thanking to colleague Luke 2, first of all) I've made a set of RN uniforms of the discussed period - http://www.uniforminsignia.org/?option= ... esult=3498 . I suppose the warrant's uniform is correct as well.

I've seen it happen before. A lot of description of rank insignia are generic; s colonel has three stars (no mention of points,) or a major wears three bars (no mention of length, or width,) just generic descriptions. Now that I think of it, it could also be a limitation of the program s/he used.

Thanks, I'll get on the scanning later today.
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Unread postby Luke2 » Sun Feb 02, 2014 5:29 pm

Hallo Dmitriy: Here is something else that will test your artistic skill./Luke

Surgeons
Full Dress: Coat the same as the Physician with the Exception of Gold Lace, White cloth Waistcoat and Breeches, plain Hat. Surgeons of Hospitals to wear two embroidered Button-holes on the Collar; Surgeons of Ship's, one. Undress: Coat the same as the Physician, but without Buttons on Cuffs or Pockets, Waistcoat and Breeches of white or blue cloth, as may be convenient.

http://www.rmg.co.uk/researchers/librar ... Collection

Surgeon full dress 1807.jpg
Surgeon full dress 1897

Surgeon full dress collar 1807.jpg
Ship's Surgeon: One embroidered Button-hole

Surgeon's hat 1807.jpg
Surgeon's hat 1807
Surgeon's hat 1807.jpg (5.1 KiB) Viewed 15318 times
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Re: Royal Navy 1787-1795

Unread postby Dorward_Bis » Sun Feb 02, 2014 8:53 pm

Luke, thanks a lot for an interesting info)).

I think it would be interesting indeed to make a separate gallery of XVIII and XIX centuries enlisted, NCOs and warrants uniforms, because most of sources I acquainted with are devoted to commissioned officers uniforms and rank insignias.
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Re: Royal Navy 1787-1795

Unread postby SFMRAS » Mon Feb 03, 2014 5:35 am

Apologies for the crappy pictures, but I had to scan them with my mouse/scanner hybrid.
The images were over two pages, with the ranks in descending order.
Assuming the pictures are in order, there should be five ranks on the top of the first, and six atop the second one.
First image should be:
Admiral of the Fleet, Admiral, Vice-Admiral, Rear Admiral, Commodore.
The second should be:
Captain over 3 years, Captain under 3 years, Commander, Lieutenant over 8 years, Lieutenant, Mate.
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rnoff (1).png
rnoff (2).png
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Re: Royal Navy 1787-1795

Unread postby Dorward_Bis » Mon Feb 03, 2014 11:21 am

Thanks, SFMRAS))

I've decided to combine your pictures into one - it is more suitable to work with it.
Image
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Re: Royal Navy 1787-1795

Unread postby SFMRAS » Mon Feb 03, 2014 7:05 pm

Dorward_Bis wrote:Thanks, SFMRAS))

I've decided to combine your pictures into one - it is more suitable to work with it.
Image

Your welcome. And thank you for combining them. I had intended to, but after probably a dozen tries in scanning it, the one time I got around to combining it, I ended up realizing that the two scans had problems, leading me to have to rescan them again! smilies-20 smilies-20

I believe there are epaulettes on one of the following pages, and if not, then in another book. I'll get around to scanning later today/early tomorrow. Stay tuned! smilies-01
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Re: Royal Navy 1787-1795

Unread postby Dorward_Bis » Mon Feb 03, 2014 8:35 pm

Great! Thanks, mate))
And it would be great too if you could find out any pictures of naval uniforms for all (if possible) or at least most of periods since 1825(1827) till 1891 - I tried to do this by myself but failed, because I could find some pictures and photos only which do not reflect necessary details of uniforms - I mean, number of buttons, cuff insignia, laces, collar insignia, hats etc. So, if such an information is contained in your books and you could share it with me, I would be incredibly thankful))
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Re: Royal Navy 1787-1795

Unread postby Dorward_Bis » Tue Feb 04, 2014 8:19 am

Btw - right now I'm watching again my favorite British serial "Hornblower" - looks like their navy uniform is very authentic. Of course there is some difference between what is shown in museums and in this movie, but not so significant. Period of Regulations 1795-1812.
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Re: Royal Navy 1787-1795

Unread postby ChrisWI » Tue Feb 04, 2014 5:17 pm

Dorward_Bis wrote:Btw - right now I'm watching again my favorite British serial "Hornblower" - looks like their navy uniform is very authentic. Of course there is some difference between what is shown in museums and in this movie, but not so significant. Period of Regulations 1795-1812.

Very good show, it's a shame it was cancelled. Ioan Grufford was amazing in the role smilies-33

Pavel's website depicts the dress uniform while in the show they mainly wore the undress uniform (ie: with the white lapel piping for Lieutenants).
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Re: Royal Navy 1787-1795

Unread postby Dorward_Bis » Tue Feb 04, 2014 6:30 pm

ChrisWI wrote:[Pavel's website depicts the dress uniform while in the show they mainly wore the undress uniform (ie: with the white lapel piping for Lieutenants).


That's right - all uniforms depicted on the website are dress uniforms. Now I intend to make undress uniforms of same periods - the difference will be visible.
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Re: Royal Navy 1787-1795

Unread postby SFMRAS » Tue Feb 04, 2014 6:53 pm

Dorward_Bis wrote:Great! Thanks, mate))
And it would be great too if you could find out any pictures of naval uniforms for all (if possible) or at least most of periods since 1825(1827) till 1891 - I tried to do this by myself but failed, because I could find some pictures and photos only which do not reflect necessary details of uniforms - I mean, number of buttons, cuff insignia, laces, collar insignia, hats etc. So, if such an information is contained in your books and you could share it with me, I would be incredibly thankful))

The color photos and illustrations are from Dressed to Kill by Amy Miller.
The black and white one is from Badges and Insignia of the British Armed Services by W.E. May, W.Y. Carmen, and John Tanner, the same place as the rank charts. I can't find epaulettes illustrations of the RN in the Badges book, but did find one in DtK.
I've included cuff details.
There are more photos to be scanned, but I'll get to them later.
Apologies for the crappy qualities of some of those scans
Attachments
Scan_February-4-2014-12-05-28-559-PM.png
Scan_February-4-2014-12-03-18-730-PM.png
Scan_February-4-2014-12-01-27-886-PM.png
Scan_February-4-2014-12-00-25-924-PM.png
Scan_February-4-2014-11-59-25-968-AM.png
Scan_February-4-2014-11-57-34-265-AM.png
Scan_February-4-2014-11-56-12-339-AM.png
Scan_February-4-2014-11-55-15-195-AM.png
Scan_February-4-2014-11-53-30-391-AM.png
Scan_February-4-2014-11-46-40-468-AM.png
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Re: Royal Navy 1787-1795

Unread postby SFMRAS » Tue Feb 04, 2014 7:00 pm

And one more post, since I can only post ten photos per post. These proved to be almost as difficult as my first scan. smilies-20
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Re: Royal Navy 1787-1795

Unread postby Dorward_Bis » Wed Feb 05, 2014 9:29 am

Invaluable info, my friend)) Pictures of Outfit allow to draw not just a "generic uniform" but something more specific - at least you can measure sizes and dimensions of laces, buttons etc...
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Re: Royal Navy 1787-1795

Unread postby Luke2 » Wed Feb 05, 2014 6:04 pm

Full dress coat - cuff detail, Royal Naval uniform_pattern 1856.jpg
Full dress uniform, Royal Naval uniform: pattern 1856
Full dress uniform, Royal Naval uniform_pattern 1856 2.jpg
Full dress uniform, Royal Naval uniform: pattern 1856
Full dress uniform, Royal Naval uniform_pattern 1856.jpg
Full dress uniform, Royal Naval uniform: pattern 1856
Full dress coat, Royal Naval uniform_possibly pattern 1856-1891.jpg
Full dress coat: possibly pattern 1856-1891
Full dress coat - back, Royal Naval uniform_possibly pattern 1856-1891.jpg
Full dress coat: possibly pattern 1856-1891


Source: Royal Museums Greenwich

http://prints.rmg.co.uk/art/515143/Full ... ly_pattern
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Royal Navy Purser

Unread postby Luke2 » Wed Feb 05, 2014 6:13 pm

Royal Navy Purser 4.jpg
Royal Navy Purser 3.jpg
Royal Navy Purser 2.jpg
Rank insignia: White as a branch colour?
Royal Navy Purser 1.jpg
Button
Full dress tail coat and cocked hat worn by Jeremiah Linde Jones, Royal Navy Purser

Unclear pattern, but obviously early 19th century

Contributed by: Braidwood Museum

Source: Australian Dress Register

http://www.australiandressregister.org/garment/480/
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Textual Sources

Unread postby Luke2 » Wed Feb 05, 2014 6:32 pm

Textual Sources

Officer’s Uniforms of the British Navy

http://www.janeausten.co.uk/officers-un ... tish-navy/

Overview, not much details; early 19th century

Uniform regulations 30th October 1877

http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.anc ... rm_RN.html

Detailed, with rank insignia; no illustrations.

See also: http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.anc ... Naval.html

Index to other pertinent sites including "Dress Regulations for Royal Marine Officers"

Naval Uniforms

http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.anc ... ml#Ratings

Overwiev, more detailed, no illustrations; from 1849
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Re: Royal Navy 1787-1795

Unread postby SFMRAS » Wed Feb 05, 2014 8:31 pm

Luke2 wrote:
Full dress coat - cuff detail, Royal Naval uniform_pattern 1856.jpg
Full dress uniform, Royal Naval uniform_pattern 1856 2.jpg
Full dress uniform, Royal Naval uniform_pattern 1856.jpg
Full dress coat, Royal Naval uniform_possibly pattern 1856-1891.jpg
Full dress coat - back, Royal Naval uniform_possibly pattern 1856-1891.jpg


Source: Royal Museums Greenwich

http://prints.rmg.co.uk/art/515143/Full ... ly_pattern

These uniforms are similar to the Pattern 1827-30, as per Amy Miller's DtK. Per the blurb 'The primary difference between ... 1827 ... [and] 1843 is the white slash and blue cuff ... n the latter.
Curiously, the picture is labeled 'Commander,' but the cuffs appear to have a [i]Commodore's
braid. The only differences I can tell from the front of the Admiral you posted is the fact that the 'commander's' ring cuff forms an 'L' at the cuff, the gold stripe at the bottom of the tunic, and the bottom two buttons being plain. Other photos with a similar cuff detail is labeled as an 'Admiral' in the book, so maybe that's in the Regulations?
I'll scan the photos later, although most of your posts appear to have them already in it. I recognized the photos when I got the book from some websites I visited, but I wasn't aware of any other sites.
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Re: Royal Navy 1787-1795

Unread postby SFMRAS » Wed Feb 05, 2014 8:37 pm

Dorward_Bis wrote:Thanks, SFMRAS))

I've decided to combine your pictures into one - it is more suitable to work with it.
Image

I just noticed something:
Immediately above the 'Captains 3+ years' text, the insignia is incorrect. Instead of sporting a crown, a star, and an anchor, it just shows a crown and an anchor. I think that's the only error, but I can barely keep my eyes open, so I could be wrong.
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RN Purser uniform pattern 1833

Unread postby Luke2 » Wed Feb 05, 2014 9:21 pm

Pursers & Captain's Clerk.jpg
Pursers and Captain's Clerk
Royal Naval uniform for Purser pattern 1833.jpg
RN Purser full dress pattern 1833


Sources:

http://collections.rmg.co.uk/collection ... 71431.html

http://prints.rmg.co.uk/art/504563/Cost ... ains_Clerk
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Re: Royal Navy 1787-1795

Unread postby Dorward_Bis » Thu Feb 06, 2014 5:05 pm

Thanks, Luke - it becomes more clear gradually concerning uniform details of that period. Good work, colleague))

Another moment I'd like to discuss: in various sources I've found two different shapes of RN epaulets which looked like being coexistent. I wonder if they had the same status, or one of them was used with an undress uniform and another with a full dress.
Image

I've made this picture to illustrate my idea. Looks like # 1 was for undress uniforms whereas # 2 and # 3 - for full dresses. Besides, it should be a difference in usage for ## 2 and 3 because # 2 is smooth and #3 is with 2 longitudinal narrow
stripes. Though may be not.

Any idea mates?
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Re: Royal Navy 1787-1795

Unread postby Luke2 » Fri Feb 07, 2014 3:43 pm

Unfortunately, no. I have three books about the Royal Navy 1793-1815, but non of them give anything but a superficial introduction to uniforms.

I once owned this book, bought over forty years ago, but its no longer in my possession. If one could find it in a library, it contains a lot of information.

Mollo.jpg
UNIFORMS OF THE ROYAL NAVY DURING THE NAPOLEONIC WARS.

John Mollo.

Published by London: Hugh Evelyn 1965 1st prtg., 1965
Mollo.jpg (11.51 KiB) Viewed 14651 times

Mollo Midshipman.jpg
This is the type of illustrations shown in the book, together with textual information.
Mollo Midshipman.jpg (16.72 KiB) Viewed 14648 times

The frames are not original; someone has ripped out a page, and made it into an item sold separately.
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Master's Mate 1810

Unread postby Luke2 » Sun Feb 09, 2014 9:24 pm

Master's Mate 1810.jpg
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The illustration showing the uniform of a Master's Mate as it was in 1810 is taken from the book Nelson's Navy written by Philip Haythornethwaite and William Younghusband and published by Osprey.
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Royal Navy epaulettes

Unread postby Luke2 » Sun Feb 09, 2014 9:44 pm

Pair of 20th Century Royal Navy Full Dress Epaulettes.jpg
Pair of 20th Century Royal Navy Full Dress Epaulettes
http://www.tennants.co.uk/Catalogue/Lots/130754.aspx

Royal Naval uniform pattern 1795.jpg
Royal Naval uniform pattern 1795
Pair of admiral's epaulettes, belonging to Admiral Sir William Cornwallis 1744-1819. Each epaulette has stars missing. The outer row has 566.42 mm bullions.
http://collections.rmg.co.uk/collections/objects/71249.html


Royal Naval uniform pattern 1795-1812.jpg
Royal Naval uniform pattern 1795-1812
http://prints.rmg.co.uk/art/509949/Royal_Naval_uniform_pattern_1795-1812

Dmitriy: Are you sure your three epaulette types are contemporaneous? /Luke
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RN epaulettes ca 1898

Unread postby Luke2 » Sun Feb 09, 2014 10:00 pm

the_british_navy_stenzel_epaulettes.jpg
RN epaulettes ca 1898


http://camberpete.co.uk/Pre_WW1_Pages/t ... enzel.html

Sub-Lieutenant should also be Chief Boatswain and Chief Gunner.
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Re: Royal Navy 1787-1795

Unread postby Luke2 » Sun Feb 09, 2014 10:07 pm

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Re: Royal Navy epaulettes

Unread postby Dorward_Bis » Sun Feb 09, 2014 10:42 pm

Luke2 wrote:Dmitriy: Are you sure your three epaulette types are contemporaneous? /Luke


Looks like I'm wrong, Luke - it seems that #2(3) is much later version than # 1. You are right, mate.

And thanks for other plates and pictures - some of them are familiar, but several are quite new for me. Thanks))
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Re: Royal Navy 1787-1795

Unread postby kjhskj75 » Mon Feb 10, 2014 7:11 pm

On this subject, last year I drew up this site:

http://www.kjhskj75z.talktalk.net/rn-uniform/

The illustrations are not very good. (my own work)

Any comments ?
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Re: Royal Navy 1787-1795

Unread postby Dorward_Bis » Mon Feb 10, 2014 8:25 pm

kjhskj75 wrote:On this subject, last year I drew up this site:

http://www.kjhskj75z.talktalk.net/rn-uniform/

The illustrations are not very good. (my own work)

Any comments ?


Great work, colleague)) A very useful and valuable information, including illustrations. May we use this for our uniforms and insignias plates?
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Re: Royal Navy 1787-1795

Unread postby Dorward_Bis » Mon Feb 10, 2014 8:55 pm

One more moment, dear Mr.kjhskj75 - concerning stars' location on admirals (except the Admiral of the Fleet) epaulets: you had shown them for Adm and VAdm being located with two lower stars horizontally within a crescent (http://www.kjhskj75z.talktalk.net/rn-un ... tml#jacket). But as I remember in that period for RAdm, VAdm and Admiral all stars were straightened up along same longitudinal line and became a "triangle" in 1846 only when all Admirals gained crossed sword and baton with a crown over them additionally to the stars.
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Re: Royal Navy 1787-1795

Unread postby Luke2 » Mon Feb 10, 2014 9:22 pm

I am glad if I can make some kind of contribution, since I do not know how to make the drawings; I suppose you need a good program, knowledge and experience.

/Luke
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Re: Royal Navy 1787-1795

Unread postby kjhskj75 » Mon Feb 10, 2014 11:51 pm

Dorward_Bis wrote:One more moment, dear Mr.kjhskj75 - concerning stars' location on admirals (except the Admiral of the Fleet) epaulets: you had shown them for Adm and VAdm being located with two lower stars horizontally within a crescent (http://www.kjhskj75z.talktalk.net/rn-un ... tml#jacket). But as I remember in that period for RAdm, VAdm and Admiral all stars were straightened up along same longitudinal line and became a "triangle" in 1846 only when all Admirals gained crossed sword and baton with a crown over them additionally to the stars.


I think you may well be right there - this would be consistent with the table in "May, Carman & Tanner".

You are welcome to use the images, my only concern is their low quality, the stars, crowns and anchors do not bear any close similarity to those actually used, they are just images I found on the net.
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Re: Royal Navy 1787-1795

Unread postby Dorward_Bis » Tue Feb 11, 2014 3:38 pm

So, basing on Regulations of 1827 and some other materials shown by Mr.kjhskj75 and Luke2, the RN officer's uniform of that period should be something like this (a greatcoat version):
Image

This is a Captain (for both 3- and 3+ years)
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Re: Royal Navy 1787-1795

Unread postby kjhskj75 » Tue Feb 11, 2014 4:59 pm

Dorward_Bis wrote:So, basing on Regulations of 1827 and some other materials shown by Mr.kjhskj75 and Luke2, the RN officer's uniform of that period should be something like this (a greatcoat version):

This is a Captain (for both 3- and 3+ years)


Looks about right - see the guy on the left in this picture:

http://collections.rmg.co.uk/collection ... 28397.html
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Re: Royal Navy 1787-1795

Unread postby Medic_in_Uniform » Wed Feb 12, 2014 12:38 pm

kjhskj75 wrote:On this subject, last year I drew up this site:

http://www.kjhskj75z.talktalk.net/rn-uniform/

The illustrations are not very good. (my own work)

Any comments ?


I've been watching this thread develop and grow with some interest but haven't had the time to comment until now.

@kjhskj75z: that's pretty good actually -- and very helpful too. It's very useful to have an online resource that allows quick textual and visual reference. The illustrations are obviously not an exact representation of a the physical historical insignia but, honestly, that *really* doesn't matter: they are perfect for giving a quick-check visual representation of who wore what in each subsequent period of RN uniform development. Thank you for sharing your work!

I've been meaning to do something like that for ages but really just don't have the time to commit to that amount of work at the moment. I'm therefore very glad that to see that someone else has done it!

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Re: Royal Navy 1787-1795

Unread postby Dorward_Bis » Wed Feb 12, 2014 5:03 pm

This is an RN officers' line according to Regulations 1827 (a great coat version).

Image

I've strong doubts concerning Midshipman's (Mate's) insignia - according to the description, "Mates and Midshipmen wearing such coats, are to be distinguished by one row of gold twist on each cuff". But which kind of a "gold twist" - no idea except what I've shown.
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Re: Royal Navy 1787-1795

Unread postby kjhskj75 » Wed Feb 12, 2014 6:01 pm

Dorward_Bis wrote:I've strong doubts concerning Midshipman's (Mate's) insignia - according to the description, "Mates and Midshipmen wearing such coats, are to be distinguished by one row of gold twist on each cuff". But which kind of a "gold twist" - no idea except what I've shown.


I think it means threads twisted (or braided) together to make a straight, very narrow stripe.
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Re: Royal Navy 1787-1795

Unread postby SFMRAS » Wed Feb 12, 2014 7:06 pm

This scanning project is proving more difficult than I first thought! I had to resort to photographing some of the pictures; that was even more difficult at times!
Attachments
GEDC0214.JPG
Pattern 1830-43, lieutenant,front.
GEDC0215.JPG
Pattern 1830-43, lieutenant,rear.
GEDC0217.JPG
Rear view of the previously posted Purser uniform, Pattern 1830-43?
Scan_February-12-2014-12-16-00-773-PM.png
This one didn't come out well, but it's the cuff of a Pattern 1830-43. There should be a second button below the smaller side one.
Scan_February-12-2014-12-14-04-362-PM.png
Midshipman, rear
Scan_February-12-2014-12-12-31-799-PM.png
Midshipman, front
Scan_February-12-2014-12-10-02-751-PM.png
Scan_February-12-2014-12-08-53-042-PM.png
Full dress, commander, trousers
Scan_February-12-2014-12-05-44-457-PM.png
Full dress, commander
Scan_February-12-2014-12-04-44-478-PM.png
Pattern 1820-30, Full dress, commander, front
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Re: Royal Navy 1787-1795

Unread postby Dorward_Bis » Wed Feb 12, 2014 8:51 pm

SFMRAS, good work))

kjhskj75 wrote:I think it means threads twisted (or braided) together to make a straight, very narrow stripe.


Hmmm... So, taking into consideration the size of an Officer's lace is 1/4" (approx.6,4 mm), the size of this twisted thread should be no more than 3 mm, or approx. 1/8". Of course, it will be visible on a cuff, but will vanish on a distance... It would be great to find out any picture of 1827 midshipman's great coat...
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Re: Royal Navy 1787-1795

Unread postby Dorward_Bis » Wed Feb 12, 2014 9:40 pm

@kjhskj75z - you mean something like this? (see in a full dimension)
Image
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Re: Royal Navy 1787-1795

Unread postby Medic_in_Uniform » Wed Feb 12, 2014 10:29 pm

That seems about right; the twist would simply appear as a very narrow gold ring. Look at the vertical lines of cord twist below each button on the picture of the older Lieutenant's undress coat cuff you have included above -- now imagine the same, but in gold, as a very slim ring around the cuff of the 1827 greatcoat / undress coat.

You may want to have another look at the description of the gold lace or black ribbon worn around the peaked cap at sea:

All Officers may wear in undress at sea, a round jacket without skirts, with their appropriate buttons and a round black hat, with a narrow black silk band and a black buckle, and a black silk or leather cockade, with a loop of the same material and half the width of the lace of their respective coats, or if they have no lace on their coats, of black silk ribbon (except Midshipmen, Masters Assistants, and Volunteers, who are to have a loop of gold twist, as before stated) or a blue cloth cap, with a band round it, of half the width and material of the lace of their coats; Officers who have no lace to their coats, who now wear gold bands, may have a band of gold lace, half an inch wide, round their caps; other Officers are to wear such bands as at present.


I suspect that you might need to make the hatband gold lace a bit more narrow for the junior ranks!

Apart from that, these look good!

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Re: Royal Navy 1787-1795

Unread postby J.T. Broderick » Thu Feb 13, 2014 3:02 am

kjhskj75 wrote:On this subject, last year I drew up this site:

http://www.kjhskj75z.talktalk.net/rn-uniform/

The illustrations are not very good. (my own work)

Any comments ?


That's really great. It's nice to have all that info compiled in one place, and the illustrations help the text from being too abstract. I've bookmarked it! One suggestion I'd make is that on the flag officers' undress cuffs with buttons, the rank lace cover the long buttonholes.

Speaking of which, "twist" meant a narrow cord which was often used on the edges of buttonholes, for cuff buttons, the old broad lapels, midshipman/cadet collars etc. One-eighth inch is about right. Gold twist would be a similar narrow cord of gold. Basically the same as gold braid, but basically round in cross-section, while braid would be more oval and lace would be flat.

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Re: Royal Navy 1787-1795

Unread postby Dorward_Bis » Thu Feb 13, 2014 2:21 pm

Well, thanks a lot to all colleagues. Therefore, taking into consideration all the mentioned above, the final "great coat 1827 RN officers version" would be something like this:
Image

There is a visible difference in a size of cap bands: for Flag-Officers is 1" (the standard lace for a uniforms is 2"), for Commanders/Captains is 0,75" (standard 1,5") and for Lieutenants/Midshipmen/Mates is 0,5" (standard for a Lieutenant is 1", and for Midshipman/Mate the cap band is 0,5" by default).

More over, thanking to the difference in cap band sizes you can tell a Captain from a Commodore (0,75" vs 1,0").
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Re: Royal Navy 1787-1795

Unread postby Medic_in_Uniform » Fri Feb 14, 2014 1:34 am

That looks good. smilies-15

What fascinates me about this is tracking the evolution of the RN uniform and insignia from the mid-1700s right through to today. It's interesting to see how the origins of some of the rank distinction markings were established relatively early in the process.

The most recent changes to the flag officer insignia a few years ago may have given the RN "parity" with their USN counterparts and made ease of recognition simpler but, particularly as I look at the history, I still think it's a shame that we lost the previously unchanged tradition of one, two and three stars for Rear Admiral, Vice-Admiral and Admiral, respectively. That arrangement of stars had survived for just over two hundred years when the sudden insignia inflation occurred!
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AMERICA - LAW ENFORCEMENT BRANCH & RANK INSIGNIA

Eeyou Eenou Police Force

Police, Security

Moderators: Miklós Lovász, kaldi, Chuck Anderson, Pavel Močoch, Erskine Calderon, Lukasz Gaszewski, ChrisWI, Zdzislaw Rudzki

Eeyou Eenou Police Force

Unread postby marcpasquin » Thu Jan 21, 2016 7:24 pm

Department of the Eeyou Eenou Police Force, the law enforcement agency within the territory of the Cree Nation in Quebec, Canada.

http://insignias.wikia.com/wiki/Department_of_the_Eeyou_Eenou_Police_Force
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Re: Eeyou Eenou Police Force

Unread postby jrichardn2 » Fri Jan 22, 2016 2:20 pm

So based on the Sûreté's insignia?

BTW do you know why the Sûreté uses so many stripes?
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Re: Eeyou Eenou Police Force

Unread postby marcpasquin » Fri Jan 22, 2016 5:40 pm

jrichardn2 wrote:So based on the Sûreté's insignia?

BTW do you know why the Sûreté uses so many stripes?


Many (though not all) of the police services in quebec that are under First nations authority use SQ type insignias. More then likely, this is to help illustrate that their status is more then a mere municipal one. In addition to the Eeyou-Eenou police, this also include among others the police service of Mashteuiatsh (see director below):

Image

As to why the Director in this sort of system has so many stripes, it is a legacy part of the design. Orginialy, the ranks went constable (no stripes), corporal (1 stripe) sergeant (2 stripes separated by a "void" the size of 1 stripe) and above that, ranks used either groups of 3 stripes bunched close by with a void similar to the sergeant. Because of this, you ended up with the Director having an insignia that contained a stripe in every possible positions even though you don't have corporal in most police forces anymore and the sergeant and lieutenant have different insignias.
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