It is currently Mon Oct 14, 2019 9:55 pm
Change font size

FICTIVE RANK INSIGNIA

Hi, Need some help on quasi-feudal rank titles!

Moderators: Miklós Lovász, kaldi, Chuck Anderson, Pavel Močoch, Erskine Calderon, Lukasz Gaszewski, ChrisWI, Zdzislaw Rudzki

Hi, Need some help on quasi-feudal rank titles!

Unread postby lordziba » Wed Apr 18, 2007 12:34 am

Hello, everybody, needs input on the feudal rank titles. Sub-story: Another star system, a human colony, akin Earth planet, went into despair, then like after 100 years, just came out of dark ages with new tech renaissance, level mix tech from 19th (civilian) and 22nd (military). However, in spite of aircraft, tanks and so forth, the main force is a kingdom, leading by a king. Now, question. I am looking for an appropriate rank titles that close to European feudal militaries. Note, it is not the same as rank of Nobility – knights, barons, and etc., nor Great Houses of Dune – War Master, Battle Master, or Battlers. I am seeking something generic from 12th century and up to 15th regarding rank titles.

Thank u, Zibster! smilies-05
lordziba
REDACTOR
REDACTOR
 
Posts: 365
Joined: Mon Feb 09, 2004 7:42 am
Location: was Ukraine now the United States

Re: Hi, Need some help on quasi-feudal rank titles!

Unread postby Jezz Jamer » Wed Apr 18, 2007 4:11 am

Are you possibly thinking something like:

High Command
-High Constible (commander in chief)
-Field Marshal (chief of logistics/chief of cavalry)
-Constible (commander of garrison)

Commissioned Officers
-Captain (commander of company of about 100 soldiers)
-Lieutenant (assistant company commander/commander of platoon of about 50 soldiers)
-Ensign (standard bearer)

Noncommissioned Officers
-Sergeant [commands, organizes and trains militia/staff officer's aide (armed servants of aristocracy/ men-at-arms)]
-Corporal (veteren soldier, commads squad of about 10 soldiers)

Regular Soldiers
-Lance Corporal (verteren soldier, assists corporal)
-Private (professional soldier)
-Militiaman (consript)
Jezz Jamer
VISITOR
VISITOR
 
Posts: 15
Joined: Sat Mar 17, 2007 10:48 am
Location: Midwest U.S.A.

Unread postby lordziba » Wed Apr 18, 2007 4:39 am

Thanks, more or less. I was thinking along those lines:

Privates:

1. Basic Consript/soldier.
2. Trooper (Consript basic training).
3. First Ranker.

Nonecomms:

4. Corporal.
5. Sergeant.
6. Color Sergeant
7. Sergeant at Arms

Junior Officers:

1. Ensign.
2. Crown Ensign.
3. Leftenant.

Field Officers:

4. Commander.
5. Crown Commander.
6. Constable.

Flag Officers:

7. General, junior grade.
8. General, senior grade.
9. Commanding General.

10. King, Commander in Chief.

Note, that rank of Captain is avoided due to the Royal Guard, in which Captain equal to General.

How about that, Zibster?! smilies-17
lordziba
REDACTOR
REDACTOR
 
Posts: 365
Joined: Mon Feb 09, 2004 7:42 am
Location: was Ukraine now the United States

Unread postby Jezz Jamer » Wed Apr 18, 2007 5:13 am

That looks pretty good and viable.
What I previously posted was more or less actual medievel army structure that I found on wikipedia.com.

Another variation you could use would be:

High Command
-King [commander in chief, (en jure)]
-Colonel General (honorary rank/minister of war)
11. Captain General [commander in chief, (de facto)]

General Staff
10. Lieutenant General
9. Sergeant Major General
8. Brigadier General

Senior Commissioned Officers
7. Crown Commander (regiment)
6. Senior Commander (garrison)
5. Commander (Battalion)

Field Grade Commissioned Offiers
4. Captain* (company)
3. First Lieutenant (platoon)
2. Second Lieutenant
1. Ensign (officer cadet/standared bearer)

Noncommissioned Offiers
11. Sergeant Major
10. Sergeant at Arms
9. Color Sergeant
8. Staff Sergeant
7. Sergeant

Enlisted Personnel
6. Corporal
5. Lance Corporal
4. Senior Private
3. Private
2. Private Basic (trained soldier)
1. Private Recruit (conscriped soldier)

* Captain Commander could be the titel of the Royal Guards leading officer. Other Guard Ranks could be:
Captain Major
Captian Lieutenant
Commander
Major
Lieutenant
Guadsman Sergeant
Guardsman Corporal
Gardsman
Jezz Jamer
VISITOR
VISITOR
 
Posts: 15
Joined: Sat Mar 17, 2007 10:48 am
Location: Midwest U.S.A.

Unread postby lordziba » Wed Apr 18, 2007 6:01 am

Cool! I am looking more or less, right, its not really midieval. Hm, what about this, btw, there no more than 7 enlisted grades due to the rank symbol extantion:

Enlisted/None Commissioned :

1. Conscript/Volunteer
2. Second Ranker (Trained Soldier)
3. First Ranker (Skilled Soldier)/ Royal Guard
4. Corporal/ First Guard (Veteran only)
5. Sergeant
6. Sergeant at Arms/ Corporal of the Royal Guard
7. Crown Sergeant (consider morelike Srgeat-Major)/ Segeant of the Royal Guard

For Officers no more than 6 Field Geades and 3 Generals, while King is 4th, but no rank insignia at all.

Commissioned :

1. Ensign
2. Lieutenant/ Ensign of the Royal Guard
3. Captain Lieutenant of the Royal Guard
4. Commandant/ Lieutenant Captain of the Royal Guard
5. Commander
6. Crown Commander/ Major Captain of the Royal Guard
7. General
8. Senior General/ Crown Captain of the Royal Guard
9. Commanding General
10. King

Zibster! smilies-01
lordziba
REDACTOR
REDACTOR
 
Posts: 365
Joined: Mon Feb 09, 2004 7:42 am
Location: was Ukraine now the United States

Unread postby Jezz Jamer » Wed Apr 18, 2007 6:29 am

Thats looks just about perfect. I like it. Although I'm not to hot on the "Ranker" titel.
I do agree with the 7 enlisted/noncom, 6 field officers & 3 Generals limit.

What about this:

Enlisted
1. Conscript/Volunteer
2. Armsman/Guarsdman (trained soldier)
3. Senior Armsman/Senior Guardsman (skilled soldier)
4. Corporal/Guardsman Corporal (veteren)

Noncommissiond
5. Sergeant/Guardsman Sergeant
6. Crown Sergeant/Guardsman Color Sergeant
7. Sergeant Major/Sergeant of the Royal Guard

Field Officers
1. Ensign/Guardsman Cadet
2. Lieutenant/Guardsman Coronet
3. Captain Lieutenant/Guardsman Lieutenant
4. Commander/Guardsman Commander
5. Senior Commander/Guardsman Major
6. Crown Commander/Guardsman Commandant

General Officers
7. General/Captian of the Royal Guard
8. Lieutenant General/Crown Captain of the Royal Guard
9. Captain General/Captain Commander of the Royal Guard
10. King (commander in chief)
Jezz Jamer
VISITOR
VISITOR
 
Posts: 15
Joined: Sat Mar 17, 2007 10:48 am
Location: Midwest U.S.A.

Unread postby Jezz Jamer » Wed Apr 18, 2007 6:39 am

Oops! I ment for GO1 to be "Sergeant General". Sorry about that.
Jezz Jamer
VISITOR
VISITOR
 
Posts: 15
Joined: Sat Mar 17, 2007 10:48 am
Location: Midwest U.S.A.

Unread postby lordziba » Wed Apr 18, 2007 7:10 am

Cool! But whole purpose of the Royal Guards be special elite force akin hybrid of the SAS/Secret Service/Storm Troopers, therefore, just like in Soviet NKVD, there fewer ranks and lower rank much above the regular military once like one to 3, but ur army fine. I might adapt General, Lieutenat General, and Captain General!


Ziba, Tikonov Guards, AFFC(S).
lordziba
REDACTOR
REDACTOR
 
Posts: 365
Joined: Mon Feb 09, 2004 7:42 am
Location: was Ukraine now the United States

Unread postby Medic_in_Uniform » Fri Apr 20, 2007 10:46 pm

If I had any comment at all, it would be to say that you need to flatten-out the rank structure; you're thinking too much along contemporary lines!

If you want something truly feudal then the full range of formal rank titles you propose is probably more than a little too complex. Although titles might be granted to commanding nobles (and perhaps a small number of their professional officers) according to their assigned roles, a rigid professional army-type rank structure of the type you would be familiar with today probably wouldn't exist for most of the assembled forces.

Also bear in mind that under such a system there could often be very little by way of a professional standing regular army (beyond the household guards of the Royal and noble families). Most of the necessary forces for any given campaign would be raised by the feudal overlords requiring a levy from their own freemen and also from among their subordinate lords and so on down the line until you come to the peasant workers taken from the fields.

Just a thought or two for you to consider.
Medic_in_Uniform
ADMINISTRATOR
ADMINISTRATOR
 
Posts: 481
Joined: Sun Jan 07, 2007 7:33 pm

Unread postby Jezz Jamer » Fri Apr 20, 2007 11:19 pm

That is a very valid point. Howerver from what I understand, these ranks are for a futuristic semi-feudal nation. So it would still be modern army just with feudal based ranks.
Jezz Jamer
VISITOR
VISITOR
 
Posts: 15
Joined: Sat Mar 17, 2007 10:48 am
Location: Midwest U.S.A.

Unread postby Medic_in_Uniform » Sat Apr 21, 2007 4:17 pm

I got bored with the work I was doing so I side-tracked onto this for a little while! The big question here is how pedantic do you want to be about the details of this creation? If you’re creating a novel then readers of a story want just that – a good story – not a lot of geeky detail about ranks and insignia. For the sake of developing this discussion, however, I would consider both the likely characters around your King and the separate concepts of the ranks of nobility, Royal administrative posts and military “ranks.”

The ideas outlined below are very mediaeval and feudal. I guess they may not sit so well with your concept of modern military technology alongside a pseudo-feudal political structure. The increasing complexity of war almost demanded the creation of standing armies, led by professional officers instead of nobles: learning horsemanship and swordplay or archery on the village green is one thing but a tank requires munitions and fuel and skilled engineers to maintain it, the same goes for fighter jets. It also requires a very different sort of industrial economy, which probably wouldn’t function effectively if wealth and power was being brokered by a small number of families. You’ll have to think about how you might get all of this to work together in your created world!

Please feel free to use any or none of this as it suits you; I fully accept that it’s much more aligned to a world of swords and horses than a futuristic sci-fi feudal system but it’s just one idea as to how such a society might be structured. I know I haven’t incorporated your differential in terms of rank titles between the Army and the Royal Guard but I kinda wanted to throw in some slightly different thoughts and, if nothing else, it will hopefully stimulate some further ideas on your part. OK, here goes:


The Monarch – Hereditary ruler. ‘nuff said, no arguments!

The Nobility
You can take your pick from established (or newly created) titles for the various ranks of nobility. In such a system there inevitably exists a “pecking order” or degrees of seniority. Many old noble Houses may have histories much longer and more significant than some of the others (including even the ruling Royal house) – this comes into play with the politics of the Kingdom and the level of influence individuals may wield at Court. The feudal nobility is hereditary; the oldest son inherits the title, land, rights and responsibilities of his father. Grants of land and lesser titles may be made to second and subsequent sons. Lesser sons may find more opportunity for advancement at Court, perhaps by joining the Royal Guard as officers. All nobility is, in theory at least, the prerogative of the Monarch but, depending on the security of their own power-base, it may be a very foolish monarch who tries to remove the lands and titles of an ancient family – wars have been fought (and lost!) over less…!!

The example below is adapted from established (British) noble hierarchy of feudal and later times. Obviously any or all of these titles may be amended or replaced by new ones but you should get the general idea.

Prince – usually the title given to a son of the King. It may also be a title in its own right for the head of an ancient noble House (whose own sons will also be princes).

Duke – a very ancient and senior degree of nobility, held to be of equal rank to a prince; often old established Houses with strong roots in one part of the country.

Earl (or Count) – another old title but superseded in seniority by that of Duke.

Viscount – a lesser version of an Earl (or Count) – usually a more recent grant and generally with less land and a smaller requirement in terms of providing men for military service.

Baron – the lowest rank regarded as being a noble.

Knight – an ennoblement but not a hereditary title. It generally carries the responsibility of small a grant of land and the requirement to give military service with a number of men when called to do so by an overlord. Knighthood is an honour and implies a certain skill at arms and also a level of duty. The sons of nobles may inherit titles and land but they must still be raised to knighthood, regardless of their noble rank (although, obviously, this is usually something of a foregone conclusion!). Any knight may make a knight but there is greater honour in being knighted by more prestigious knights (of prowess at arms or of more noble seniority) or, obviously, by the King.


The senior establishment at Court:
These roles are just a few of the likely characters that would be involved; they are likely to be from noble families but will probably be picked for ability as well as political influence, so their own hereditary station may not be the highest.

Lord (High) Chamberlain – head of the domestic side of the Royal Household and organiser of the Court.

Lord (High) Chancellor – head of the administrative side of the Royal government (a sort of feudal Prime Minister). There will obviously be others on the staff of the Lord Chancellor to take on certain sub-roles of his office (a sort of feudal cabinet). The day-to-day administration will likely run without the direct intervention of the King.

Lord (High) Marshal – head of the Royal Household Guard and also chief military advisor to the King (a sort of feudal Secretary of Defence and also military Chief of Staff). He may or may not be appointed Captain-General of the army, depending on the nature of the campaign being undertaken and the size of the force in the field.

Lord (High) Justice – the chief judge and law officer of the kingdom. Day-to-day he administers the law with Royal Authority but the King has the final say! Subordinate Royal Justices will be placed around the Kingdom but, again, final say will rest with the local feudal overlord. In remoter areas, the overlord himself will be the Royal Magistrate.


The Royal Guard
The regular soldiers of the Guard will be regarded as "chosen men" and, relative to conscript peasants in the army pro-tem, they would automatically be regarded as Corporals or Serjeants.

The senior Serjeants of the Guard would effectively be Warrant Officer/Sergeant-Major types: efficient, experienced veteran professional soldiers who are well regarded by their officers. (The older spelling of "serjeant" is deliberate.)

Many (probably most) of the “officers” of the Guard will inevitably come from various noble families. They may be described as "Knight-Captain (of the Guard)" regardless of any actual noble ranks they may hold. This rank would be roughly equivalent to contemporary company grade officers but there would likely be little distinction in terms of titles or uniforms – these officers know each other and seniority will likely be determined by which company of guards they are appointed to – a bit like Roman centurions working their way up from the last cohort of a legion to the first. (Perhaps referred to as Knight-Captain of the 1st, 2nd, 3rd…? The title of "Sub-Captain (of the...)" could be used for young nobles, new to the Guard and just appointed to their Companies.)

Their unit commanders would be "Knight-Marshal (of the Guard)" a rank perhaps equivalent in stature to modern field grade officers. Again, this would be irrespective of any noble title they hold and seniority between them would be determined by convention and appointment. These officers will report to the Lord Marshal and the senior of them will deputise for the Lord High Marshal in the day-to-day running of the Guard (First Knight-Marshal perhaps…?).


Around the Kingdom:
The Reeve (note: an old English term – the “Shire Reeve” ultimately became “Sheriff,” shire being a rough equivalent of County) is a noble appointed by the King to exercise the Royal authority in an established part of the realm. The title Lord Provost may be used for a similar role in larger towns and cities. As a general rule, they would report through the Lord High Chancellor. In more remote areas the Reeve will also be the Royal Magistrate, dispensing the King’s Justice. In bigger settlements, the Lord Provost will likely have a Royal Justice as part of his staff to undertake this role but he may have the final say. The Reeve would also be responsible for commanding and maintaining a militia from the knights and nobility within his area; in these matters he would report to the Lord High Marshal. In time of war, he may or may not retain command of that militia, depending on operational requirements or other appointments he may be given. A Lord Provost is responsible for the security of his city and will raise and organise the City Watch, under a Watch-Captain and Watch-Serjeants.

Senior nobles from important families would usually have a long traditional association between their House and a recognised geographical area. They will generally be their own Reeves, with direct authority from the King, and will raise their militias from their subordinate nobles and knights, with associated peasantry as footsoldiers. A senior noble with a large household and a big tract of land to manage will likely have his own Chamberlain, his own Chancellor and his own Knight-Marshal to head his own professional household guard and organise the local militia (possibly with Knight-Captains under him if it’s a big household guard or maybe just a Knight-Captain if it's smaller). Again, in a time of general mobilisation, the nobles will likely get jobs that we would now recognise as senior staff officer posts and the professional Knight-Marshals may get the equivalent of regimental command roles, under the Lord High Marshal, or whichever noble was appointed as the Captain-General. If the nobles are given senior command roles then I would expect their Knight-Marshals to stay with them, effectively acting as their chiefs of staff within that command.


The Army
All military appointments, with the exception of those of the standing forces of the Royal Guard (and other household guards), are temporary and describe a ROLE within the deployed force rather than a substantive “rank” as we would understand them. I would suggest that many of the “officer” roles will inevitably be allocated to nobles and knights, according to seniority – although you can obviously make exceptions for characters of lesser degrees of nobility who, perhaps, have notable histories of proven command ability. Overall, the army pro-tem will have a relatively “flat” rank structure – the nature of feudal government is that significance and seniority is determined by political influence and appointed role as much as by rank title.

Captain-General
The commander of the army in the field. In practice, the role of Captain-General may well be appointed to an influential senior noble, probably for political reasons. Alternatively, if they are old enough, the Captain-General could possibly be a son of the King. All of this will leave the Lord High Marshal free to be an independent advisor to the King and also to command and retain the loyalty of the Guard, separate from the army as a whole (always a useful fail-safe for a monarch!). Depending on the situation, I guess it could be possible to have a Captain-General of the Armies of the West, Captain-General of the Armies of the North, and so on, in which case the Lord High Marshal might act as a co-ordinating Chief of Staff between them.

Other senior command roles:
Marshal of Horse, Marshal of Foot, Provost-Marshal, etc…
These are almost always nobles but will inevitably have some proven experience in these roles.

“Field” grades:
Marshal of the (insert name of area Militia or other unit here).
Usually nobles or knights but may also be from the more influential families of the landed gentry. There may be scope for a "Lieutenant-Marshal" as a supernumary second-in-command of larger units or, perhaps a "Captain-Major" who would be commander of the first company and also acting as second-in-command. The Serjeant-Major would be the right-hand of the Marshal for administration and discipline among the common soldiers.

“Company” grades:
Captain of the (1st, 2nd, 3rd…) Company of… etc.
Sub-Captain of the same (where required).
Sometimes lesser nobles (or their sons) or knights, depending on the significance or seniority of the role, but also drawn from the landed gentry.

Other ranks:
Serjeant
Corporal
Common soldier




That's it for now - adapt or ignore this as you choose! smilies-01
Medic_in_Uniform
ADMINISTRATOR
ADMINISTRATOR
 
Posts: 481
Joined: Sun Jan 07, 2007 7:33 pm

Unread postby Medic_in_Uniform » Sat Apr 21, 2007 5:08 pm

For your fictive universe, try these ranks as a possibility. I have deliberately limited the scope of the "enlisted" grades as I suspect that a feudal-type system would not want to expand these too far! (Note: the rank-codes are to indicate relative seniority within the systems and do not necessarily directly reflect contemporary NATO rank codes!)


Army:

E1 - Common soldier
E2 - Corporal
E3 - Serjeant

E4 - Serjeant-Major

O1 - Cornet
O2/3 - Banneret / Banneret-Major
(regarded as subdivisions of the same company-grade rank)

O4/5 - Provost / Provost-Prime
(regarded as subdivisions of the same field-grade rank)
O6 - Reeve

O7 - Marischal,
O8 - Marischal-Major
O9 - Marischal Prime

O10 - the Monarch (no other associated rank-title required!)


Royal Guard

E2/3 - Guardsman (also known as Chosen Man)
E4 - Lance-Serjeant of the Guard
E5 - Serjeant of the Guard
(you could add in an E6 - Serjeant-Major of the Guard if you wish)

O3 - Vice-Provost*
O6 - Provost*
* Exact seniority within the Guard will depend on seniority of appointment and the nature of the role undertaken (O2-3 for Vice-Provost - the term "Ensign" is used for the most junior O2 grade - and O4,5 or 6 for Provost but outside the guard these are the titles and equivalent grades that the general army must formally accept and use.

O7 - Reeve

O8 - Prefect
O9 - Legate
(I guess you could use Captain-Prefect or Captain-Legate or some other variation if that would suit your needs but I've tried to avoid the direct use of the more obvious contemporary rank titles where possible; "Major" is used to indicate "greater or senior" rather than as a reference to the contemporary rank.)

O10 - the Monarch (no other associated rank-title required!)
Medic_in_Uniform
ADMINISTRATOR
ADMINISTRATOR
 
Posts: 481
Joined: Sun Jan 07, 2007 7:33 pm

Unread postby Jezz Jamer » Sat Apr 21, 2007 10:05 pm

WOW, I felt like I was reading an encyclepedia entrie. Are you a historical writer of some sort?

Anyway that was ablsolutly fansinating. Althought, I think you may have forgotten one thing.

The Lord High Constable was the poxy commander-in-chief of the army under the King. But I suppose your excert about the Lord High Marshal explains that away.

I don't know if Lord Ziba will still use the information you posted as I think he's aleady completed what he need help with; but I know I sure will.

I've been trying to find something like that forever. I've been to wikipedia and other official historical sites and have read many historical books but none have been as informative or as easy to understand as your post.

So, thank you. smilies-15
Jezz Jamer
VISITOR
VISITOR
 
Posts: 15
Joined: Sat Mar 17, 2007 10:48 am
Location: Midwest U.S.A.

Unread postby Medic_in_Uniform » Sat Apr 21, 2007 10:16 pm

Thank you - but read my comments carefully! I certainly didn't forget about the title of Lord High Constable - I just chose not to include it! smilies-15

Remember that the while the above is certainly drawn from historical facts it is, nevertheless, a fictionalised and adapted version of history, such as may be found in a fantasy novel - it's most definitely NOT entirely historically accurate!!

The other point to make is that the historical situation was not the same in different countries, nor was it a static, steady-state; things changed and developed as the centuries went by and different leaders re-ordered things to suit their needs at the time they were in power. From a historical perspective, you can discuss general patterns but for precise detail you can only ever speak with accuracy about fairly narrow fixed time-periods! Does that make sense?

This is rather approximate but, for example, the truly feudal description of the nobles that I have used above is somewhat early Mediaeval, whereas the concept of a more formal (if temporary) rank structure with grading and rank-titles for a generally mobilised army would come rather later. I've adapted it quite a bit (and some bits are just totally made up) but I'd suppose it's probably more Renaissance, at the earliest.

In my main example, I guess the monarch would rule with a council of nobles (and possibly others of influence - but that would depend on the nature of the story the author wished to tell!). This council could be constituted either by some sort of formal appointment or could be called on a more ad hoc basis as the monarch saw fit. Quite how much the King gets the final say would be up to the person telling the story...!

I know you said you've looked but the Wikipedia entries for "Knight," "Nobility" and "Feudalism" do cover a lot of the basics, and the associated linked pages cover more! The page on "Royal and noble ranks" is also worth a look.

This site may also be of interest to you:
http://www.learner.org/exhibits/middleages/feudal.html

I hope that helps!

smilies-01
Medic_in_Uniform
ADMINISTRATOR
ADMINISTRATOR
 
Posts: 481
Joined: Sun Jan 07, 2007 7:33 pm

Unread postby Medic_in_Uniform » Thu Apr 26, 2007 1:51 pm

Hi Zibster,

All of this probably bears little or no resemblance to what you had in mind but your ideas inspired a burst of creativity on my part so I thought I'd share it with you anyway...!

The core concept here is much as you describe; a futuristic/sci-fi setting where the government is a monarchy with feudal overtones but in a relatively technologically advanced society. The army is largely composed of national service / conscript forces and the Royal Guard is seen as a much more elite, specialist organisation with much more social precedence as well as military prowess.

I have deliberately engineered-in some quirks to the structure of the Royal Guard, suggestive of an organisation that has some historical traditions and anachronisms, as you would expect of a service which is much older than the modern Army.

The idea is that, once upon a time, the Royal Guard effectively WAS the army and there was no other standing force, just feudal lords, their knights and peasant soldiers. As the nation grew, and with ongoing wars, a more organised conscript army was also established and this developed parallel to the elite Royal Guard. As a result, the Guard is seen to be much more senior than the Army and Guard officers have significant seniority over Army officers of apparently equivalent rank, perhaps echoing the political importance of the Guard as well as their military role.

Looking at the rank insignia, the Army has a very straight progression of ranks where increasing numbers of simple insignia form the rank-markings of progressively more senior ranks and, where there are subtle distinctions of rank, gold is senior to silver.

Throughout, I have used a stylised Crown as the emblem of Royal authority, hence it appears on ALL officer rank insignia as a symbol of commission, rather than as a rank insignia in its own right (it can therefore effectively be "discounted" when working out an officer's grade). I have used a double headed Eagle, per pale or and argent, as the Royal (and therefore National) emblem, presumably from the ancient Royal arms, which is why it appears in many locations. I have chosen purple as the ancient Royal colour and used in in much the same way the British use red (for the same reason).

If you look carefully, you will see that the "bars" of the Army ranks are reflected in the numbers and metals of the ten-point "starbursts" of the Guard rank insignia. Originally, there would have been direct parity between numbers of "bars" and numbers of "stars" but, over time, custom and practice has determined that Guard officers have come to hold significant seniority - to the extent that, outside of the Guard itself, they are accorded authority and privileges much greater than their army counterparts.

When serving with Army units, for example, Guard officers are automatically regarded as senior company- or field-grade officers, and are addressed as such. The sub-divisions of the more juniors comissioned grades are used only within the Guard. The differential between Provost (II) and Provost (III) is intentionally unusual - something that I imagine might have developed historically if the two grades were regarded as sub-divisions of one rank. I guess it's vaguely similar to the original positions of Rear-Admiral (Upper Half) and Rear Admiral (Lower Half) in the US Navy but here both share the same insignia.

The standard Army rank insignia are shown as they would appear on a sort of feldgrau coloured service uniform. Combat insignia would be smaller, subdued and would be appropriate to the nature of the uniform being worn.
The NCO chevrons for the Army ranks, just to make them more obviously different from those of the Guard. Although the single-chevron "Veteran" soldier has nominal seniority over a straight common conscript and some pay enhancement, both are regarded as sub-divisions of E1.

Image

I imagine that, originally, the Guard would have been headed by a Prefect, with Reeves (senior Colonels would be our nearest approximations) commanding each sub-unit. As the guard grew, it became divided into a number of Legions, each commanded by a Legate, equivalent to the original Prefect.

The Legates were regarded as equal under the Monarch, who was their commander-in-chief. As the size of the forces grew again, and with the creation of the senior Marischal ranks in the Army, the rank of Prefect was re-established as the overall commander. Regardless of their nominal "O10" and "O8" designations, the Prefect of the Royal Guard is always senior to the Marischal Prime and the Legates are always senior to any of the other Marischal grades.

Relative to the Army, the Guard has a slightly more "flat" rank structure - this perhaps reflects the nature of the Guard in terms of a more rigid internal hierarchy and code of honour, such that its officers and men have less need of a more outwardly displayed ranks structure.

At the other end of the scale, Guardsman (Chosen Man) I and II are listed as E3 and E2 but are actually regarded as sub-divisons of the same grade. Both would be regarded as being the equivalent of at least a Corporal in the Army.

The Royal Guard rank insignia, showing both Full-Dress ceremonial markings and also the plain, dark shoulder straps of the Patrol Blue service uniform. The same for the other ranks. (Again, combat insignia would be smaller, subdued and would be appropriate to the nature of the uniform being worn.)

Image

Full-Dress uniform for Commanding Officers, Senior Officers, Field/Company Officers and other ranks. For formal Royal occasions and ceremonial duties. I somehow imagine that mameluke sabres, much like those of British general officers or officers of the USMC, would work well with this uniform...! The full dress coats were originally midnight blue, the same as the service uniform, but I thought I'd try some alternatives and rather liked the way the dark green looked! If you had other ideas let me know; re-colouring the drawings using a different colour-scheme is not too difficult to do.

Image

Day-to-day (non-combat) service uniform: Patrol Blue. A simple, dark uniform with minimal markings worn by officers and more subdued markings worn by NCOs.

Image

Example of Colours for a unit of the Royal Guard.

Image

Finally, the dark blue version of the ceremonial uniform, including a Special Full Dress variant in Royal purple for the King as Commander-in-Chief...!

Image

I know that's a really huge post but I kinda had fun with these (even though I'm supposed to be working on other things!) so it seemed a shame not to share them with you, even if they're actually nothing like what you were originally discussing!

Enjoy!
Medic_in_Uniform
ADMINISTRATOR
ADMINISTRATOR
 
Posts: 481
Joined: Sun Jan 07, 2007 7:33 pm

Unread postby BW » Thu Apr 26, 2007 4:39 pm

Impressive! One of the most interesting rank insignia designs ever seen.

A question: Does that kingdom also have other service branches? Indeed I hope we will soon see navy stuff as well (please !!! smilies-05 ).

Greets, BW
BW
VISITOR
VISITOR
 
Posts: 38
Joined: Wed Feb 08, 2006 8:42 am
Location: Vienna, Austria

Unread postby lordziba » Thu Apr 26, 2007 5:27 pm

Very interesting regarding rank system. What's kind of bother me, too much into British style. U c, full dress more like mid-19th century, while battledress modern akin to US, but much more armor/panzer protection akin sort of knight. Furthermore, the sword, akin to king's Arthur sword, not a saber, is nessesary attribute of an officer. But still, I am consider this very outstanding and nice work -- Good Job!


Zibster! Tikonov Republic Guards smilies-34
lordziba
REDACTOR
REDACTOR
 
Posts: 365
Joined: Mon Feb 09, 2004 7:42 am
Location: was Ukraine now the United States

Unread postby Medic_in_Uniform » Thu Apr 26, 2007 7:16 pm

Thanks guys!

This little project was only ever my own imagination running wild so I never really expected that the designs were going to look like whatever Zibster might have had in mind for his own creation! Aalthough if you let me know some more of the details of what you imagined I can work on it and see if I get close to what you pictured! smilies-02 ).

I agree that some of it does look a little British - the gorget patches, for example, are an obvious link - but those sort of details are easily modfied. Equally, the use of a crown as an emblem of Royalty was, I suppose, always going to look rather British too but I would argue that the Army ranks insignia are anything BUT British in style!

The "bars" began as a variation on the bars for 2LT to CAPT in the US army and the underlying inspiration for the officers' dress uniforms was actually the general officers' frock coats of the Civil War-era US army. The insignia for the Guard are a bit more British, I suppose, but again, the idea was actually to have a system that followed the pattern of the army "bars" (at least in its origins) but just using a different form of emblem.

I did start off by using a much more "linear" ten-point star which looks a LOT less British - if I'd got as far as doing a subdued combat version, that's probably what I would have used. My plan was always to drop the crowns and just use the bars or stars for the subdued versions, with very stripped-back versions of the more formal insignia for the more senior ranks of both services. In fact, I'll try to post subdued combat versions of both systems in the near future so you can see what I mean.

I have no idea what a Navy would look like (or even if there would be one - maybe this sort of society doesn't have a structured navy as a separate service...?). I tend to like the traditional gold rings, either on coat cuffs or hard shoulder-boards so I guess that if I was to do naval insignia, I'd probably end up doing something that simply converted the Army's bars into equivalent stripes. We'll see...!

The use of a simple longsword with plain quillons (much like that used in the generic Guard insignia) would work perfectly well and could certainly be included.

Thanks again for your comments!
smilies-01
Medic_in_Uniform
ADMINISTRATOR
ADMINISTRATOR
 
Posts: 481
Joined: Sun Jan 07, 2007 7:33 pm

Unread postby marcpasquin » Thu Apr 26, 2007 7:46 pm

For the insignias, you could the heraldic object that were granted to someone of that rank. In french heraldry, you had the following:

- Connetable (commander in chief after the king): a cloud from which emerge 2 hands holding swords pointing upward
- Marshal: 2 crossed batons
- Colonel-General (in charge of one branch such as dragoons): 2 groups of 3 to 5 flags or lances penants.
- Grand master of the artillery (like a colonel general but for the artillery): 2 cannons pointing away from one another
- Admiral: 2 crossed anchors
- Vice-Admiral: 1 anchor
- Chaplains: a cap with tassels
Marc Pasquin
marcpasquin
ADMINISTRATOR
ADMINISTRATOR
 
Posts: 382
Joined: Wed May 26, 2004 9:29 pm
Location: australia, formely quebec

Unread postby Jezz Jamer » Thu Apr 26, 2007 9:22 pm

Wow those look really good. What medium did you use to designe them???
Jezz Jamer
VISITOR
VISITOR
 
Posts: 15
Joined: Sat Mar 17, 2007 10:48 am
Location: Midwest U.S.A.

Unread postby Kedyw » Thu Apr 26, 2007 9:32 pm

These are just terrific!

Man, you should really do a few more of these.
Kedyw
CORRESPONDENT
CORRESPONDENT
 
Posts: 184
Joined: Wed Feb 18, 2004 3:15 am

Unread postby BW » Thu Apr 26, 2007 10:42 pm

1) Marc, do you have pics (or links to pics) of those French heraldic symbols? Would be interesting.

2) (Jezz:) "What medium did you use to designe them?"
An important question. I do think many of us would have fun and enthusiasm using such a program.

3) (Cody:) "Man, you should really do a few more of these."
No, not few. Please MANY! smilies-05

Greets, BW
BW
VISITOR
VISITOR
 
Posts: 38
Joined: Wed Feb 08, 2006 8:42 am
Location: Vienna, Austria

Unread postby Medic_in_Uniform » Fri Apr 27, 2007 12:25 am

Thanks guys, but they're really not much more than glorified doodles as I try to avoid the work I'm supposed to be doing at the moment... (!)

The graphics package I usually use is Corel DRAW! - although my version is getting kinda old now. I should learn to use Adobe Illustrator or something like that but for now I'm just sticking to what's familiar and easy (for me) to use. The images are then exported as .jpg for posting via an image hosting site.

To Cody and BW, there are a few other illustrations of mine already out there on the Forum. Easiest way to find them is probably to look at my old posts.

smilies-01
Medic_in_Uniform
ADMINISTRATOR
ADMINISTRATOR
 
Posts: 481
Joined: Sun Jan 07, 2007 7:33 pm

Unread postby Jezz Jamer » Fri Apr 27, 2007 12:51 am

Corel DRAW! really? Someone else had mentioned that to me once but at the time I couldn't afford it. I have had to use Microsoft Word for the insignia designs I do. Microsoft Word was mentioned to me by a professional insignia designer a few years ago when I first started out. I'll have to look into this Adobe Illustrator. Thanx. smilies-15
Jezz Jamer
VISITOR
VISITOR
 
Posts: 15
Joined: Sat Mar 17, 2007 10:48 am
Location: Midwest U.S.A.

Unread postby Medic_in_Uniform » Sat Apr 28, 2007 3:37 am

I was considering Marc's comments about old heraldic symbols and the options are indeed endless. Looking at it objectively, there are generally three main forms of rank insignia:

(1) those that use a very limited number of emblems and then combine these in some way to create a numerically increasing pattern which then defines the specific rank marking for each increment in grade. Naval cuff rings are probably the best and most simple example of this. The British military pattern of stars +/- crowns is another.
Benefits: fairly simple and usually reasonably intuitive and easy to understand but sometimes requires some knowledge of the relative significance of each emblem; readily identified in the field.

(2) those that use a range of unique emblems for each grade or role, perhaps in a similar to the way to the old French insignia that Marc describes. The disadvantages is that while such embellishments may make for beautiful additions to, say, coats of arms, they're not always as easy to incorporate into a standardised system of "rank insignia" in the contemporary sense rather than as heraldic emblems for specific roles - but I do take his point!

(3) those that use some combination of the above. The US system has type 1 at each end (the bars for company officers and the stars for general officers) and type 2 in the middle (for the field grade officers).

There are benefits and disadvantages to each approach and, when deciding how to construct a rank system, it's interesting to think about not only what would look right but how such a system might have evolved, especially if you're designing for a service or organisation that might have a significant back-history!

Then there's the thorny question of deciding if specific colours or metals have any greater significance thn another (e.g. would gold be senior to silver?). This may be nice from a design point of view but it can create problems with clarity and reduces at-a-glance ease of recognition. Potentially it also makes subdued insgnia more tricky too. This leaves you to decide if the relative size of the individual component emblems is important or whether it's only the number of them that counts!

Just a few of the things that went through my mind and you may want to consider them too!

On another note, I was thinking of the sword that Zibster mentioned and Marc's comments on heraldic emblems and I wondered what else I might do if I was to start from scratch with a system of rank markings based on a pseudo-mediaeval structure. What, I wondered, was the ubiquitous symbol of the Knights and the "officer class"...? Obviously, the SWORD! In a similar vein for the foot-soldiers I settled on the SPEAR.

Using some of the symbols and emblems from my last efforts, I thought I'd have a go at something TOTALLY different! This illustration is the result. all of these are patches that might be worn on the upper arm of a doublet jacket (no epaulettes or shoulder-boards here!). I imagine bullion embroidery in silver and gold for the "officer" ranks and appliqued fabric for the other ranks; common soldier has no markings

These could either be sewn onto a regulated "uniform" type clothing if such existed or, in a more mediaeval fashion, they could simply be worn attached to the right sleeve of every-day peasant or court clothes.

Image
Medic_in_Uniform
ADMINISTRATOR
ADMINISTRATOR
 
Posts: 481
Joined: Sun Jan 07, 2007 7:33 pm

Unread postby lordziba » Sat Apr 28, 2007 5:00 am

Hm, very interesting, that more or less I had in mind. Question to u, my friend, Medic_in_Uniform {so, sorry, I do not know ur real name}. Could u do a photoshop copy back those insignias for officers only on soulder bars, in style like u did in past. Then, is any way to create a modern (or near future) soldiier in cammo and gun but with insignia visible but subbed. That would be indeed great!

Try to create somethings like that, ultramodern, and yet having those drawbacks:

http://battlefield.ea.com/battlefield/b ... iaback.jpg

Zibster, smilies-26 !
lordziba
REDACTOR
REDACTOR
 
Posts: 365
Joined: Mon Feb 09, 2004 7:42 am
Location: was Ukraine now the United States

Unread postby Medic_in_Uniform » Sat Apr 28, 2007 12:17 pm

Yes, that shouldn't be too difficult to do - I'll see what I can come up with for you!

smilies-01
Medic_in_Uniform
ADMINISTRATOR
ADMINISTRATOR
 
Posts: 481
Joined: Sun Jan 07, 2007 7:33 pm

Unread postby ChrisWI » Sat Apr 28, 2007 1:06 pm

Medic, as always your illustrations are the best .. simply the best.

Jezz, could you send me a PM on how to create insignia in Word? I am interested in how its done as I cant find any features for this ... or did you mean Microsoft Paint?
ChrisWI
ADMINISTRATOR
ADMINISTRATOR
 
Posts: 1806
Joined: Tue Oct 15, 2002 8:09 pm
Location: West Islip,New York,United States

Unread postby Medic_in_Uniform » Sat Apr 28, 2007 2:43 pm

Aw, shucks Chris...! smilies-08

I've never tried using the the drawing package from MS Word but I'm impressed that Jezz has! I was already using Corel DRAW! so didn't see the point in trying to use a less well-featured system; I'd probably find the art features of Word very frustrating!

Zib,
here's your updated insignia. I had to adapt the rank-markings slightly in order to get them to work properly on shoulder straps / epaulettes. I also had a re-think about the relatively contemporary style of peaked caps. In this version I've used pseudo-mediaeval bonnet-type berets as dress headwear. I guess the inspiration is historical but the nearest current example would perhaps be the soft berets worn by the Swiss Guard in the Vatican.

Image

Also shown below are subdued versions of the same insignia; I've shown service dress type berets too in a kind of Feldgrau colour but maybe theis sort of headwear would be reserved for full dress? The badges are reduced in size but are still bullion on a dark backing; for operational use I'd probably use matching feldgrau backing and have embroidered cap badges in more subdued colors.

Image

I don't have time to do a complete combat uniform figure at the moment - but I get the general idea that you have in mind. Would you put the rank markings on the front of the body armour (as per the current UK and US approach) or would you have it on the shoulder-pad part of the armour? Equally, would the markings appear on the helmet at all?

Just some things for you to think about!
smilies-01
Medic_in_Uniform
ADMINISTRATOR
ADMINISTRATOR
 
Posts: 481
Joined: Sun Jan 07, 2007 7:33 pm

Unread postby Medic_in_Uniform » Sun Apr 29, 2007 1:47 am

You wanted something more mediaeval-looking than a mameluke sabre; here's one possible version of a ceremonial (but decidedly functional!) sword, in a very classic style, for dress uniforms in both officer and other-ranks versions.

Also shown are the ceremonial batons of rank for Marischal Prime (only one incumbent at any given time; a sort of Chief of Staff billet) and Marischal.

Image
Medic_in_Uniform
ADMINISTRATOR
ADMINISTRATOR
 
Posts: 481
Joined: Sun Jan 07, 2007 7:33 pm

Advertisement

Email Converter - our sponsor


Return to FICTIVE RANK INSIGNIA

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest

cron

Search

User Menu