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FICTIVE RANK INSIGNIA

Hi, need some opinion on proto-German airborne troops!

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Hi, need some opinion on proto-German airborne troops!

Unread postby lordziba » Sat Aug 04, 2007 4:54 am

Hi everybody, I am currently working on illustration on fictive sci-fi state based on Imperial/WWII Germany. The idea is, in one book, on French Hussars, I found out, that they today utilized as airborne troops in France. So, my question, can be German Uhlans can be used as airborne troops, as oppose, let say, traditional Fallschirmjaegers? I donno, something akin to Uhlan Airborn Kavallerie(?)!
Any opinions appreciated! Zibster smilies-10
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Unread postby ChrisWI » Sat Aug 04, 2007 12:13 pm

Very interesting Felix, I did not know that about the French hussars. Something similar that I do know its that for a brief period in the 1960s and early 1970s the Portuguese Army's lancer cavalry acted as the military police.

As for airborne cavalry, I guess it could work. Especially if they used those small airmobile light tanks like the German Army's Wiesel.
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Unread postby Miklós Lovász » Mon Aug 06, 2007 9:35 am

The French Hussards were created in the early XVII. century by Hungarian emigres (notably the counts Esterhazy and Bercsenyi), in the same time with their Prussian, Russian and English counterparts and proved so succesful, that the Bercsenyi and Esterhazy hussard regiments was maintained to this day, although converted to airborne units (1st and 2nd Hussards). So, in answering the question of Lordziba: you can have any airborne unit wearing any name, so that Uhlan would be appropriate. The only thing you should consider is whether the former role of horse-mounted Uhlans would equvalate the modern role of airborne infantry. The Hussards were light cavalry, specialising in raids, reconnaissance and such affairs. If you consider that the Uhlans were the same than by all means it would be okay to have them transformed into an airborne unit.
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Unread postby lordziba » Mon Aug 06, 2007 5:22 pm

Thanx for replay, guys. Then yet another, follow up question: Ok, let say Uhlans (lancers) are airborn, where should they suppousadly be, Army or Air Force? If Air Force, what rank system and insignias (since, akin Luftwaffe the "Kaiserlichkrigsluftflotte" has own rank system (more to British RAF smilies-01) and insignias)?

Zibster smilies-26
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Unread postby Miklós Lovász » Mon Aug 06, 2007 7:40 pm

lordziba wrote:"Kaiserlichkrigsluftflotte" has own rank system (more to British RAF smilies-01) and insignias)?

That would be "Kaiserliche Kriegsluftflotte" but why not make it simple "Kaiserliche Luftwaffe" as in Imperial Air Arm?

As to the rank insignia, where can we see them?

Btw, the ranks designations for the Yhlans were the same as for the rest of the Army, except that Captain was Rittmeister not Hauptmann. The French Hussards have the same rank designations as the rest of the Army, so I believe your Airborne uhlans should have the same ranks designations as the Army, for reason of tradtition, rather then some newfangled designation. Also the RFC had new rank designations because IT WAS a new brach, while your Airborne Uhlans would be an OLD branch given new tasks.
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Unread postby lordziba » Mon Aug 06, 2007 8:00 pm

Kaiserliche Luftwaffe is not ready yet. But if u wanna c the ranks, here the links for Imperial Armee:
Full Dress and Service ranks:
http://a561.ac-images.myspacecdn.com/im ... c3e378.jpg

Combat and utility:

http://a10.ac-images.myspacecdn.com/ima ... 6fde21.jpg

Zibster smilies-13
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Unread postby lordziba » Tue Aug 14, 2007 5:24 pm

Here is a sample of the future Kazerlich Luftwaffe. Though, I need help with the NCO’s and some officers' ranks. But, I am seeking something general, since I do not like, let say Engineer one titles, Medical another, Security and so forth. I prefer a generic rank title that suits all aspects of the Air/Space Force:

http://a771.ac-images.myspacecdn.com/im ... 9b814a.jpg

Thjank you, Zibster! smilies-02
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Unread postby Miklós Lovász » Tue Aug 14, 2007 6:00 pm

A couple of observations:

First, I don't think that appending "Luft" to all the ranks is necessary - I don't recall any German ranks so formulated. One was Leutenant no matter if he was artillery, armour or infantry.
Second, I would use more cavalry-specific ranks, so that the first two would be Uhlan and Oberuhlan, while the O-3 would be Rittmeister. The "Flugmeitster" wouldn't do at all, since this is not a flying coprs but an airborne one.

Third, as this is going to be an airborne arm, I think I wasn't paying attention earlier ... oops, my bad smilies-08 so the name should rather be either "Kaiserliche Stosstruppen" or "Kaiserliche Uhlanen Korps"

So all in one, I would suggest the following list:

Uhlan
Oberuhlan
Gefreiter
Feldwebel
Oberfeldwebel
Stabsfeldwebel
Fanhrich
Leutenant
Oberleutenant
Rittmeister
Major
Oberstleutenant
Oberst
General Major
Generalleutenant
General der Kavallerie (if there are no other cavalry units) or General der Stosstruppen / Uhlanen
Generaloberst
Generalfeldmarschall
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Unread postby lordziba » Tue Aug 14, 2007 8:36 pm

Thanx Miklós, those are good, but Uhlans and I might use these ranks. I was wondering akin generic aerospace ranks for line units, not Uhlans in particular. Hm, my ranks regarding Uhlans would be something like that:

Uhlan

Oberuhlan

Gefreiter

Untieroffizier

Unterfeldwebel

Feldwebel

Oberfeldwebel

Fanhrich

Unterleutenant

Leutenant

Rittmeister

Rittmeisterkommandant

Kommandant

Oberst

Generalkommandant

Generalleutenant

Generalrittmeister

General der Stosstruppen


Thank you, again, Zibster! smilies-10
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Unread postby Miklós Lovász » Tue Aug 14, 2007 8:44 pm

Rittmeisterkommandant
Kommandant
Generalkommandant

Generalleutenant
Generalrittmeister
General der Stosstruppen

Hmm, the use of "Kommandant" is somewhat tricky. You see, in German is used only to signify "commanding officer" and not as "commander". So, I think using Major would be preferable.

Also for the general ranks you could use something like this:

Generalleutenant
Generalrittmeister
Generaloberst
General der Stosstruppen
Generalfeldmarschall

it's not exactly in the German tradition, but hey, we're talking about something that happens couple of hundred/thousand years in the future, so some liberties can be taken smilies-15
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Unread postby lordziba » Tue Aug 14, 2007 9:11 pm

By the way, any ideas for the line?
I can't just call'em -- Matrozen, since its an areospace force, not airfleet, and cannot call something like Sworm Leader, since there engineering and other branches, and yet, I wanna something different from army and navy
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Unread postby Miklós Lovász » Tue Aug 14, 2007 10:09 pm

Well, let's see ... basicly what you want are ranks for flyers, correct? Let's see:

Flieger
Oberflieger
Unterflugmeister
Flugmeister
Stabsflugmeister
Hauptflugmeister
Fanhrich
Leutenant
Oberleutenant
Hauptmann
Major
Oberstleutenant
Oberst
Generalleutenant
Generalmajor
Generaloberst
General des Flieger
Luftmarschall

In Germany there wasn't much difference between ground forces/air forces rankd designation, so it' anybody's guess ...
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Unread postby lordziba » Wed Aug 15, 2007 7:06 am

Interesting, and I actually like ranks from Flieger to Fahnrich, but rest nah. Actually u kind of slightly incorrect regarding that Germans never had specific air ranks. Yes they did, as matter of fact RAF was a biggest influence, I am too lazy go and bend over and get a book, but ranks somewhat for Fleigersomething (predecessor Luftwaffe) had those ranks, however, instead of traditional let say Generaloberst something like Assistant to Air Minister, while there were Kommodore and Kapitan, while for rest (NCO’s) variations of fuhrer. More u can read here:

http://www.amazon.com/Uniforms-Insignia ... 1854094971

That's where I descover those ranks, btw, I had no clue abot that and Luftwaffe itself was named like 1934-5, while already having new uniform. I think unifom itself was introduced in 1933, but Luftwaffe begun exist like 1934 (I have yet another book to prove).

Thanx again, Zibster smilies-01
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Unread postby Miklós Lovász » Wed Aug 15, 2007 7:15 am

The Luftwaffe actualy existed since the '20's, only that it was hidden behind Lufthansa. The same happened in Hungary too, with the fledgling air force hidden behind the civilian air company, most of the army hidden behind the Financial Guard and Gendarmerie and the Danube Navy posing as mere "River Guard" smilies-01
So, while camouflaged as a civilian organisation, I'm sure they used some sort of civilian ranks designations. Anyway, I'm quite interested in the subject, so if you could find the book and scan some pics, I would be most grateful smilies-15
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Unread postby lordziba » Wed Aug 15, 2007 5:51 pm

Hi Miklós, at lest this is not ur angry voice smilies-29! Ok, I lifted my lazy ass, and goes:

To make it clear I do not talk about National Socialist Flaying Corps and so-forth, here strictly about origins of Luftwaffe. It started as on March 25, 1933 (Davis, p.13) as Deutscher Luftsport-Verband and Fliegertruppen (Lezeus) and their ranks had similar philosophy to RAF (Davis, p.18):

Reichsminister der Lufthrt
Staatssekretar
Fliegerkommodore
Flieger-Vizekommodore
Fliegerkommandant
Fliegerkapitan
Schwarmfuhrer
Kettenfuhrer
Oberflugmeister/Bordoberfunkmeister/Obermeister
Flugmeister/Bordfunkmeister/Meister
Unterflugmeister/Bordunterfunkmeister/Untermeister
Untermeister/Bordfunker/Oberwart
Flugzeugfuhrer/Bordfunker/Wart
Flieger

Note that their insignias on collar already same as April's change (Davis, p.79-80), where insignias were introduced as we became to know, the only difference the shoulder bars, basically they change from specific, to akin ground forces pattern.

And another thing, I cannot scan, in order to do so, I had to bend the book apart, thus destroying it, sorry.

Zibster smilies-01!
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Unread postby lordziba » Wed Aug 15, 2007 5:53 pm

One more thing, I need literal translation of two ranks: Schwarmfuhrer and Kettenfuhrer.

Ziba smilies-04!
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Unread postby orke » Wed Aug 15, 2007 6:41 pm

Hi Lord , Orke here

literal translation: Schwarmführer = Swarm leader
Kettenführer = Chain leader

The chain was and is a formation/unit of German Airforce.
Two airplanes were a pair.Two pairs a chain.
The swarm had several chains.

A swarm can be called also "Schwadron".



Greeting, ORKE
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Unread postby Erskine Calderon » Wed Aug 15, 2007 7:16 pm

LZ,

You might be interested in this:


Ranks of the Deutscher Luftsportverband
http://www.axishistory.com/index.php?id=2882

Reichsminister der Luftfahrt

Fliegerchef (1)

Fliegervizechef

Fliegerkommodore

Fliegervizekommodore

Fliegerkommandant

Fliegerkapitän

Schwarmführer

Kettenführer

Oberflugmeister (2)

Flugmeister (3)

Unterflugmeister (4)

Flugzeugführer 1 (5)

Flugzeugführer 2 (6)

Hilfsflugzeugführer (7)

Oberflieger

Flieger

Anwärter



1. This rank was originally known as Staatssekretär

2. The non-flying version of this rank were Bordoberfunkmeister and Obermeister

3. The non-flying version of this rank were Bordfunkmeister and Meister

4. The non-flying version of this rank were Bordfunkuntermeister and Meister

5. The non-flying version of this rank were Bordfunker 1 and Oberwart

6. The non-flying version of this rank were Bordfunker 2 and Wart

7. The non-flying version of this rank were Hilfsbordfunker and Unterwart
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