Tuvan insignia 1938-41.

[aardvark]

Hello,

i was recently in contact with a Tuvan historian who has started researching the Tuvan army (he isn't a military historian), and he was kind enough to give me the following.

The Tuvan are used the same coloured branch of service collar patches as the Red army, which for Tuva would be blue as they were a cavalry force.

In 1938-41 the Tuvans had their own rank insignia which was called "doshka" or happiness knot, a buddhist symbol which is found on top of the traditional Tuvan caps. Esssentially a ball or sphere with a tuft on top.

1938-41 insignia/ doshka for officers and nco's was of 2 kinds
1- doshka without feet and 2- doshka the foot.
I did ask for a clarification and was told -
"where leg (foot) can be called different things such as supports on which stand any thing"
It's a direct translation from Tuvan, and i still have no idea what it means.
1938-41 insignia were position ranks - separate commander, squadron leader, commander of regiment etc.
From 1940 personal military ranks introduced.
In 1941-43 Red army rank insignia replaced the doshka.

There are lots of photos of Tuvans with the doshka insignia
(on parade in greatcoats) here-

http://mil-history.livejournal.com/648063.html

A close up of doshka insignia on this link (scroll down to last photo), but when i tried it recently , the link did not come up.

http://en.tuvaonline.ru/2010/02/23/4600 ... y-ool.html

Lastly a link showing Tuvans on parade/public display (late 1941 , early 1942 ?), they are wearing the 1941 Red army insignia.Note the officer in the faded shirt and 2 nco's with triangle insignia , front of lorry.
Again this link did not work when i tried it , it was working months ago.Not sure what the problem is with these Tuvaonline links.

http://en.tuvaonline.ru/2012/06/22/tuva ... front.html

Ran.

[aardvark]

Just checked the Tuvaonline website, found the 2 articles , but they still do not show. Ok 6 months ago, must be a problem with the Tuvaonline website.
If working the churguy-ool link would have shown a close up photo of an officers collar patch with gold piping (like Tuvas Red army and Mongolian comrades), and the "doshka " i estimate to be about 10mm in dianeter for the sphere with a 5mm semi circle on top as the "tuft" or head.

The only other source of information about Tuvan insignia would no doubt be the "Central museum of the armed forces" in Moscow. Perhaps some of our fellow forum members from Russia might like to contact the museum ?
Last year i did contact the national museum in Tuva, they were helpfull, but apart from the "livejournal" photos, did not have any information about Tuvan insignia.

Ran.

[croc909]

Interesting information Ran. Did the churguy-ool photo show a metal or enamelled officers doshka insignia ?

John.

[aardvark]

The officers doshka insignia were metal, i assume gold/gilt and not enamelled, plus gold cord piping around the collar patch.
Perhaps the nco's insignia were enamelled, like in the red army.

Ran.

[general_tiu]

I've seen something that could be useful.

http://leib-hussar.livejournal.com/470033.html

http://s1099.photobucket.com/user/leib- ... 0.jpg.html

[croc909]

Just recently had a reply from Tuvan historian (via the Tuva museum) Dr Boris Mongush , who confirms that during the 20 years the Tuvan army existed , they used 6 different types of insignia.
5 of which were Soviet , except the 1936/8-41 years when the Tuvan "doshka" symbol (as previously mentioned in earlier posts)

was used.

Dr Mongush confirmed that -

1- The Tuvan army used Soviet colours for collar patches, which were the dark blue "royal blue" for cavalry.

2- Officers had gold/gilt piping or cord around the collar patches.

3- No rank insignia was worn on the lower sleeves /above the cuffs for officers during 1936/8-41.

To date he has been unable to find what "doshka" 1936/8-41 insignia was actually used. Still researching.

John.