Royal Marines: Colonel-Commandant vs Brigadier

[Dorward_Bis]

Looking for some additional information concerning UK rank insignias of WWII, I've found that according to some sources Royal Marines had both ranks - Colonel and Brigadier.
But, according to the "Pay of the Royal Navy" document dated 1942, there were no any evidence of the R.M. Brigadier, but the Major was followed by Colonel 2nd Commandant, then Colonel Commandant, and then the Major-General etc. Therefore, the Colonel 2nd Commandant should be equal to the Army Colonel and wear same rank inisgnia, and the Colonel Comandant should be equal to the Army Brigadier with same rank insignia as well.
Is this correct? Because all other sources insist about the RM Brigadier existance.
Thanks in advance.

[Luke2]

In the Navy List of 1944 there are two Colonels Commandants and six Colonels Second Commandants of Royal Marines, all of which have an earlier date than the substantive promotion date as "Acting Colonel Comdt. Temporary Brigadier".

For example:
Robin Hasluck Campbell
Promoted Colonel Commandant 3 Oct 43
Colonel in Army 1 Sep 40
Acting Colonel Commandant, Temporary Brigadier 15 July 40.

You also had one Temporary Colonel who was "Act. Tempy. Col. Comdt. Tempy. Brigadier".

Among the Lieutenant-Colonels and Majors some were "Act. Tempy. Col. Comdt. Tempy. Brigadier". [Some other Lieutenant-Colonels were "Act. Maj. Gen".]

Its still confusing, though.

[Dorward_Bis]

Yes, Luke, pretty confusing)

Again, according to the document known as the "Pay of the Royal Navy", 1942, there were Royal Marines CO ranks as follows: Probationary 2nd Lt, Probationary Lt, Lieutenant (of several grades of service), Captain (of several grades of service), Major (of sev.gr.of service), Lt-Colonel (of sev.gr.of serv.), Colonel 2nd Commandant, Colonel Commandant, Major-General, Lt-General and General. And all of them are mentioned not in the Allowances section only - in this case one could think that the Colonel Commandant is not a rank but a functionary position, - but in the Full Pay section as well. And, as we know, the Full Pay one gets for his military rank, as we say, "for pips". No Brigadiers!
But according to other sources, Royal Marines gained Brigadier in 1928 but both Colonel Commandants remained untouchable until the end of WWII. So, there is a contradiction between this claim and the information you can get from the "Pay of the Royal Navy". Unless during WWII all R.M.Brigadiers were altruists and ran free

[Luke2]

While we are at it, anyone who knows anything about the Royal Marines having more senior rank while serving embarked with the Royal Navy, than while serving on land with the Army?

You can see it in the Navy List, although only for the captains and lieutenents. But I can't figure out according to what system.

Brevet Majors ranked as Commanders, R.N.
Captains either ranked as Lieutenant-Commanders or Lieutenants, R.N.
Lieutenants either ranked as Lieutenants or Sub-Lieutenants, R.N.

It obviously has to do with time in rank, since those lower on the respective list had lower relative seniority. But what where the cut-offs? And what about more senior ranks? And the second-lieutenants?

[Dorward_Bis]

Yes, this was my next wonder - why the Major's position was equivalent to the Commander's R.N. position etc. Resembles the SS-ranks superiority to Wehrmacht or the Soviet NKVD to the RKKA (as we remember, the NKVD Lieutenant was eqaul to the Army Captain, the NKVD Major was equal to the Army Colonel, the NKVD Senior Major to the Army Brigade Commander etc).
Well, a good uniformological iilustration of the immortal Shakespear's "There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in your philosophy"

[60bill]

For the turn of the last century from Rank Badges and Dates, Perry 1888.

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[Luke2]

Here is someone more knowledgeable than me trying to figur out the colonel commandant - brigadier situation (although I am not sure he knows everything):

RM 2nd Lt = RN Sub-Lt = Army Lt;
RM Lt = RN Lt = Army Captain;
RM Captain = RN Lt Cdr = Army Major;
RM Major = RN Cdr = Army Lt Col;
RM Lt Col = RN Captain [with less than 3 Yrs' seniority] = Army Colonel

RM Colonel 2nd Commandant [same pay as a Lt Col RM of 3 Yrs' seniority] = RN Captain of up to 6 Yrs seniority = Army Colonel or Brigadier [loose comparison, depends upon appointment]
RM Colonel Commandant = RN Captain of 6+ Yrs seniority = Army Brigadier
[RM Brigadier = RN Commodore = Appointment, not a rank]
RM Major-General = RN Rear Admiral = Army Major General
RM Lt General = RN Vice Admiral = Army Lt General

Source: http://www.arrse.co.uk/community/thread ... 238/page-2

[Dorward_Bis]

Hmmm... Luke, sounds really awkward. From all sources I read before it seemed to me that RM ranking system (at least, Officers') was same as of the Army, and nothing gave me any idea that RM Captain equals to the Army Major.

[Luke2]

1999 RM officer ranks realigned with RN, Army and RAF to remove ambiguity in corresponding rank: lieutenant (with three years’ seniority) to lieutenant-colonel realigned one substantive rank higher. Wearing of overall trousers and embellished cap peaks henceforth started at lieutenant-colonel rank. DCI(Gen)39/99.

https://nickoftimemktg.wordpress.com/20 ... ay-1-july/

1.The Royal Marines rank alongside their army equivalents. However, when borne on the books of any of HM Ships or Naval Establishments Royal Marines are subject to the Naval Discipline Act 1957; in those circumstances, many officer ranks in the Royal Marines formerly enjoyed greater status. Second Lieutenants were equivalent to Sub Lieutenants and ranks from Lieutenant to Major were considered equivalent to one rank higher (OF-2 to OF-4). Lieutenant Colonels were considered equivalent to RN Captains with less than six years in the rank, and Colonels were equivalent to Captains with more than six years seniority. Higher ranks followed the equivalence on the table above. This state of affairs ended on 1 July 1999, when Royal Marine officer ranks were fully aligned with those of the Army.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compariso ... tary_ranks

I keep searching for more information./Luke

[Luke2]

All Captains of 8 years' standing, while embarked in HM Ship, to have the temporary rank of Major in order to place them in equality with Lieutenants of the Royal Navy of the same standing, and during such time to receive the extra pay of 3s a day allowed to Brevet Majors, such rank and pay to be retained when officers and men are temporarily landed from the Fleet for drill or other duty, or when landed for warlike operations as a part of a combined force of Seamen and Marines under the command of a Naval Officer, but not in cases where the Marines are acting with Her Majesty's Land Forces Authority - Order in Council, 4th August 1873.

This is the earliest instance of higher RM officer rank when embarked, I have found.

Source: http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.anc ... _&_OR.html