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EUROPE - MILITARY BRANCH & RANK INSIGNIA

New British Army Appointment

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New British Army Appointment

Unread postby trbaldwin » Thu Aug 20, 2015 12:07 pm

British Army has created a new Appointment with Special Insignia

The Army Sergent Major
http://www.army.mod.uk/news/27179.aspx

The new Appointment is on Par with the

Australian Army
Regimental Sergent Major of the Army (RSM-A)

New Zealand Army
Sergent Major of the Army (SMA)

Canadian Army
Army Sergent Major (ASM)
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Re: New British Army Appointment

Unread postby dcfowler » Thu Aug 20, 2015 6:31 pm

Here is a picture....looks like a regular appointment badge, or is the wreath special?
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RSM.jpg
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Re: New British Army Appointment

Unread postby 60bill » Thu Aug 20, 2015 8:21 pm

The badge is very similar, though much larger, to the Royal Logistics Corps Conductor.
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Re: New British Army Appointment

Unread postby 60bill » Thu Aug 20, 2015 10:08 pm

Image
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Re: New British Army Appointment

Unread postby SFMRAS » Thu Aug 20, 2015 11:09 pm

I wonder if the size is appointment-specific or Guard-specific?
I've noticed that some appointments insignia differ slightly, either in color or the shape of the backing, and now I'm wondering if every WOI appointment has a variation or if it's just standard regimental variations?
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Re: New British Army Appointment

Unread postby trbaldwin » Fri Aug 21, 2015 1:58 am

The Half Wreath at the Bottom of the Royal Arms
Is the Signifier for the new position, similer to what the Canadaian Army
has for there ASM

Also The British Army ASM also has a unique Cap Badge, Not he is waring the COL & BRIG "Staff Officer Cap Badge"

In turn this is different to the
Just Coat of Arms won by WO1s/RSMs
& Certinly Yes this Badge is far larger then what a standard RSM would ware in Cam Uniform

The GSM London Distrcit has the Coat of Arms behind 3 or 4 Cheverons on his Ceremonial Scarlet Tunic
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Re: New British Army Appointment

Unread postby dcfowler » Fri Aug 21, 2015 4:19 am

I was poking around for information on this new appointment, and came across an interesting page about historical and current warrant officer appointments in all four services:

http://bootcampmilitaryfitnessinstitute ... ed-forces/
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Re: New British Army Appointment

Unread postby Medic_in_Uniform » Fri Aug 21, 2015 11:50 pm

Interesting. This has been muttered about for some time and the CGS seems to have been very keen to introduce a "senior soldier" role.

He does indeed appear to be wearing the General Staff bullion embroidered cap badge on his beret -- I wonder if his formal uniform will also include a scarlet hat band for No1 and Service Dress caps...?

Regarding the appointment badge, I guess there are only so many ways that you can embellish the Royal Arms rank badge without going completely over-the-top. Note, however, that the key difference for the new Army Sergeant Major badge appears to be that the wreath is actually oak leaves with acorns, not a laurel wreath. I could be wrong, but I don't think I've seen that used anywhere else before. The recently introduced Command Sergeant Majors wear something similar below the Arms, but their wreaths are laurel leaves.
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Re: New British Army Appointment

Unread postby 60bill » Sat Aug 22, 2015 9:50 am

I think for oak leaves they are a little off, or maybe intended to represent laurel leaves with extended buds.
They appear to have a more laurel appearance than oak, maybe oak laurel.
Anyone know what's the official description?
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Re: New British Army Appointment

Unread postby dcfowler » Sun Aug 23, 2015 6:04 am

Does anyone have a photo of the command sergeant major badge?
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Re: New British Army Appointment

Unread postby Medic_in_Uniform » Sun Aug 23, 2015 1:08 pm

Yes we do: if you look in the other recent thread about British army uniforms there are links to the dress guidance for The Rifles infantry regiment. The most recent version of that document includes the badge for Command Sergeant Major (it's about halfway through the PDF document), in both the bullion and embroidered versions. It looks correct but the Rifles dress regs have been known to have minor inaccuracies in the past. As far as I understand it, this badge is also the same as that used for the Corps RSM role in the various support Corps (or Corps ASM for the REME). There's a slightly different version of the "big badge" that includes the gun below the Arms for the equivalent role in the Royal Artillery.

The article you linked to in your previous post also has pics of most of these appointment badges.

If you compare the Corps / Command SM badge with the new Army SM badge (although we don't yet have a good hi-res photo of ASM Houghton to zoom in on) you can still just about make out that although the leaves below the Arms are broadly the same pattern, one version is laurel leaves with berries and the other is oak leaves with acorns.

Both versions are different to the existing versions of the WO1 appointment badges for Conductor, Royal Logistics Corps and the Academy Sergeant Major at Sandhurst.

There's a lot of muttering about how this affects the relative seniority of the various top WO1 appointments across the army. There is an existing order of precedence (with several categories of seniority within the top WO1 appointments) and the Conductors (from their historic origins as Conductors of Ordnance) were always regarded as having precedence (I'm not going to debate the finer points here) but that doesn't take into account the new Corps / Command / Army appointments. Intuitively, it makes sense and seems inevitable that the new ASM role must take precedence over all the others, regardless of whoever else comes top below that -- but there might be a lot of ruffled feathers to smooth before some folks accept that...!
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Re: New British Army Appointment

Unread postby Medic_in_Uniform » Sun Aug 23, 2015 5:34 pm

OK, a quick look at the differences:

Corps RSM / Command SM:
or-9-reme-corps-asm.jpg
or-9-reme-corps-asm.jpg (27.93 KiB) Viewed 5734 times


which may also be seen as:
CorpsCommand RSM.png


AcSM
Full Dress
RMAS_1.jpg

Service Dress
scan0009-1.jpg


ASM: (sorry, poor quality for now)
FullSizeRender.jpg
FullSizeRender.jpg (8.57 KiB) Viewed 5734 times

The pattern of the wreath of leaves below the Arms is definitely different to the Corps/Command RSM badge. It's less obvious here but if you zoom in on the full photo of ASM Houghton you can pick out the indented edges of the leaves and the two parts to the "fruit" between the leaves which makes me pretty convinced these are oak leaves and acorns rather than laurel leaves and berries. I'll try to confirm this independently and get back to you. I'm sure at some point we'll see versions of this for service dress (embroidered for khaki No2, although in practice will be much the same as the badge seen in the photos above), ceremonial dress (bullion for dark blue No 1) and possibly even bullion on scarlet for full dress.

At some point, I'll get around to doing my own drawings of all of these appointment-specific variations to the WO1 Royal Arms badge, but it won't be for a while.
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Re: New British Army Appointment

Unread postby J.T. Broderick » Sun Aug 23, 2015 9:59 pm

I agree with Medic, the leaves have "serrated" edges and the other things are tapered like acorns, not round like berries. A subtle difference, but a difference to be sure.

Justin

asm_badge.jpg
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Re: New British Army Appointment

Unread postby Medic_in_Uniform » Sun Aug 23, 2015 11:00 pm

Thanks, Justin — that's a much better grab than I managed and I haven't had time to go back and have another go. The image is the clearest I've seen so far and pretty much confirms for me that those are oak leaves. It would certainly fit as a symbol of seniority.

Whilst it does sort of make sense, I'm still rather intrigued by the fact that they chose to use the bullion General Staff Officer cap badge. It's such a unique role though, with service-wide responsibility, that it does make sense to have a cap badge unaffiliated to any other particular unit and the General Staff is as good as any.
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Re: New British Army Appointment

Unread postby 60bill » Mon Aug 24, 2015 5:29 pm

Thanks for the enlargement..
Now that you can now see the wreath in greater detail, oak it is.
As for the cap badge, I would have thought that they could have used a variation of the general service badge, which would mirror the rank badge.
Although it's not as stylish as the bullion staff badge.
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Re: New British Army Appointment

Unread postby ottolima » Mon Aug 24, 2015 7:36 pm

The beret badge is the same used by Staff Officers (Brigadiers and Colonels) from British Army and Royal Marines.

British Army Staff Officers Cap Badge.jpg
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Re: New British Army Appointment

Unread postby Medic_in_Uniform » Tue Aug 25, 2015 2:19 am

Yes, it is indeed the General Staff cap badge. We were discussing the fact that they had opted to use this particular badge. Historically, it was also worn (with the other accoutrements: scarlet hat band, scarlet gorget patches) by Staff Officers of more junior ranks but for most of the 20th Century and onwards it has generally been recognised as the cap badge of those senior officers appointed to the General Staff (i.e. Colonels and Brigadiers).

It seems reasonable that the assumption would be made that the new ASM would need a cap badge not directly affiliated with any specific regiment or corps; I don't know how the role has been positioned within the army's structure but it appears logical that the appointment would be attached to the General Staff. The other likely possibility for a cap badge, the Royal Arms, has long been used (in stamped metal form) as the cap badge for the General Service Corps but this serves as a "holding" unit for those awaiting posting to a specific regiment or corps and for new recruits in the earliest stages of training. A unique embroidered version could possibly have been used for the ASM but I suspect that association with the General Service Corps was not was was required, and may even have been felt to "under-value" the ASM role.

I can't see the ASM wearing staff officers' gorget patches but the scarlet Staff hat band might be appropriate for a service dress cap or a No1 forage cap. It probably won't affect the current incumbent (who comes from the Grenadier Guards and therefore has a regimental cap with a scarlet band anyway, although I wonder if he'll continue to wear the Guards-style "slashed" peak...?).
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Re: New British Army Appointment

Unread postby 60bill » Tue Aug 25, 2015 10:46 pm

In the past the Royal Arms has being used by a number of corps before issued to the General List Infantry, for Service Battalions in 1914. Later in 1915 officers holding other appointments. In use with the General Service Corps from 1942.
The Royal Crest was also used for the Extra-Regimentally Employed list as part of the reorganisation of the Army Staff in 1904, reorganised in 1953.
A variation of the crest was used by the infantry training battalions and the Junior Leaders.
The Royal Crest can be associated, as part of the badge, with dragoons, hussars, marines, RAPC and a few infantry regiments.

To have a badge that represents the whole army, and going to use the Royal Crest, I would have thought that the Army Badge (Badge of the British Army, introduced in 1939 based on a design by Captain Oakes-Jones) would have being the ideal choice. The Army Badge has represented the British army on buildings, flags and even patches from when Winston Churchill formed his government in 1940 and created the office of Minister of Defence.
So my vote would be for a bullion army badge that I feel symbolizes the British Army.
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Re: New British Army Appointment

Unread postby Medic_in_Uniform » Wed Aug 26, 2015 1:27 am

That would be interesting -- I guess you're picturing something essentially like the current badge but with the swords in saltire behind the Royal Crest...?

The other options that spring to mind are (a) the use of an embroidered/bullion version of the Royal Arms, thus (somewhat) differentiating the badge from the General Service Corps or (b) the same but with the inclusion of oak leaves below the Ams, representing (if not necessarily directly replicating) the ASM appointment badge.

I don't know if the current choice of badge is a temporary solution until something else is created or if this is the final choice; given that the appointment dates back to April and the work has obviously already been done on the appointment badge, I assume the use of the General Staff badge is the definitive final choice. As I said before, I don't know, administratively, where they have chosen to place the ASM within the army structure but attaching the role to the General Staff would seem to be a fairly logical place, so that may also have been a factor in how this decision was reached.

I'm sure there have been (and will continue to be) plenty of comments along the lines of "why is he wearing a colonel's or brigadier's cap badge...?!" where individuals equate the cap badge with these ranks rather than the General Staff as a group.
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Re: New British Army Appointment

Unread postby 60bill » Thu Aug 27, 2015 8:14 pm

That would be interesting -- I guess you're picturing something essentially like the current badge but with the swords in saltire behind the Royal Crest...?

That' the idea, which cold be easily produced in subdued and metal, that I could see the only individual holding a rank needing subdued.

My first thought was for a bullion Royal Arms, your suggestion of the addition of the wreath would, would make it distinctive from the General Service Corps badge. However my own personal view is that a cap badge should not be a duplicate of the rank badge.

This leaves the army badge, the design you described would be a symbol that's recognised by all to be that of the British Army.
Since the Staff and GSC are officer only, using the Staff badge seems to be a contradiction, unless it's a case of plenty in stock and an easy cheap fix.

One question, with an army slimed down thinner than a model on laxatives, do we really need more grades? I sure the post could be filled by the most senior WO1 as an appointment.
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Re: New British Army Appointment

Unread postby dcfowler » Fri Aug 28, 2015 4:28 am

60bill wrote:

One question, with an army slimed down thinner than a model on laxatives, do we really need more grades? I sure the post could be filled by the most senior WO1 as an appointment.


I think that is what they did, more or less.
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Re: New British Army Appointment

Unread postby Blakwhit » Tue Jan 26, 2016 1:03 pm

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Re: New British Army Appointment

Unread postby Medic_in_Uniform » Tue Jan 26, 2016 1:11 pm

Good find. smilies-33

Looks like he's continuing to wear his Guards mess kit.

My goodness but that's a BIG badge... (!).

smilies-24 smilies-15
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Re: New British Army Appointment

Unread postby Medic_in_Uniform » Tue Apr 26, 2016 9:45 am

The clearest image so far, from Glenn Haughton's own twitter page:

uH1AjuUQ.jpg
uH1AjuUQ.jpg (54.75 KiB) Viewed 4177 times
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Re: New British Army Appointment

Unread postby sketor7558 » Fri Jun 24, 2016 6:38 am

Here is the Army Sergeant Major in No.1 Dress.
Attachments
CjYwYdDXEAAH4m6.jpg large.jpg
CkB3JZhW0AETlH7.jpg
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Re: New British Army Appointment

Unread postby Luke2 » Fri Jun 24, 2016 6:34 pm

The female to the left in Picture #2, is she an officer or a NCO? She has a sash, but I can't see any pips on the shoulder straps. Is she carrying a pace stick?
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Re: New British Army Appointment

Unread postby Medic_in_Uniform » Fri Jun 24, 2016 7:20 pm

The crimson waist sash alone should clearly say "occifer" and I don't think the pic has the resolution or the camera angle to clearly establish rank markings on the No1 shoulder boards. The absence of peak embellishment on the No1 forage cap says rank below field rank but the significant collection of gongs suggests a fairly lengthy service.

My guess would be a late entry commission for a former warrant officer and therefore a captain. What does anyone else think?


On another note, and looking back at the photos, I see the ASM is definitely wearing the General Staff bullion cap badge but on his Guards forage cap. I had wondered if they would move to the standard (non-parent regiment) General Staff forage cap (albeit with plain patent peak instead of the single row of bullion oak leaves that a colonel or brigadier would wear).

I guess there was no way they were going to separate a Guards WO1 from his slashed peak...! (How on Earth will he cope when he finishes this tour as ASM and finally takes up his LE commission — and has to wear a "normal" hat...?! smilies-15 )
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Re: New British Army Appointment

Unread postby SFMRAS » Fri Jun 24, 2016 8:54 pm

For the simple fact I see a smudge on her right shoulder, and I think the view of the left should show two or three stars, I'm going with a second lieutenant.
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Re: New British Army Appointment

Unread postby Medic_in_Uniform » Fri Jun 24, 2016 8:59 pm

SFMRAS wrote:For the simple fact I see a smudge on her right shoulder, and I think the view of the left should show two or three stars, I'm going with a second lieutenant.



That's a very well-travelled subaltern...! smilies-24 smilies-15
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Re: New British Army Appointment

Unread postby SFMRAS » Sat Jun 25, 2016 12:14 pm

Medic_in_Uniform wrote:
SFMRAS wrote:For the simple fact I see a smudge on her right shoulder, and I think the view of the left should show two or three stars, I'm going with a second lieutenant.



That's a very well-travelled subaltern...! smilies-24 smilies-15

Perhaps she started out as a non-officer and got a commission later in life as a lieutenant?
Then again, I don't think the UK has an up-or-out policy, so maybe just a failure to get promoted?
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Re: New British Army Appointment

Unread postby Luke2 » Sat Jun 25, 2016 2:22 pm

Crimson sash makes officer, I should have known that. So what do you call the stick she has under her left arm? And whats her cap badge?
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Re: New British Army Appointment

Unread postby marcpasquin » Sat Jun 25, 2016 2:59 pm

Luke2 wrote:Crimson sash makes officer, I should have known that. So what do you call the stick she has under her left arm? And whats her cap badge?


looks like a pace stick. here is one unfolded:

Image
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Re: New British Army Appointment

Unread postby SFMRAS » Sat Jun 25, 2016 4:34 pm

Are WO Is permitted a sash? Looking at the (Engineer ?) OF in the center, he appears to have shoulder knots, while the woman doesn't. I googled pace stick and was surprised to find non-SgtMjrs cab be allowed to utilise it, based on regimental traditions.
Could she be an RSM? Could the sash be worn in lieu if a Sam Browne belt?
*sigh*
The British Army and their regimental traditions!;)
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Re: New British Army Appointment

Unread postby SFMRAS » Sat Jun 25, 2016 4:54 pm

Here's the Twitter page.
https://mobile.twitter.com/ArmySgtMajor ... 9090667520
There's a rear view that appears to show nothing in her shoulders ... and her right arm is out of view, so I can't see if she's a WO.
According to Wikipedia, Foot Guard NCOs and above wear a sash as do line infantry officer when wearing blue. Perhaps based on the cap badge, a Welsh Guard?
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Re: New British Army Appointment

Unread postby Luke2 » Sat Jun 25, 2016 6:52 pm

Welsh Guards Jacket No1 Blue Dress.jpg
Welsh Guards Jacket No1 Blue Dress.jpg (29.75 KiB) Viewed 3254 times

Cannot be Welsh Guards, since the buttons are not spaced five and five. I must go with Medics explanation: crimson sash = officer. But the stick looks like a pace stick.

I wonder were Sketor gut the picture from, maybe it had a text with name and rank of the people.
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Re: New British Army Appointment

Unread postby sketor7558 » Sat Jun 25, 2016 9:40 pm

Luke2 wrote:
Welsh Guards Jacket No1 Blue Dress.jpg

Cannot be Welsh Guards, since the buttons are not spaced five and five. I must go with Medics explanation: crimson sash = officer. But the stick looks like a pace stick.

I wonder were Sketor gut the picture from, maybe it had a text with name and rank of the people.

I got it from https://twitter.com/ArmySgtMajor the June 3rd tweet.
And from what it appears she is a REME WO1.
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Re: New British Army Appointment

Unread postby Luke2 » Fri Jul 01, 2016 10:19 am

Corps ASM clearly failing to amuse Fred Abraham.jpg
REME WO's are after all wearing crimson sashes.
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Re: New British Army Appointment

Unread postby Medic_in_Uniform » Mon Jan 30, 2017 12:56 am

Well spotted, Luke! It does indeed seem that some WOs1 are wearing the officer-pattern crimson sash. He's even got the officer-pattern gold shoulder-cords, but then he is the Corps ASM. I am surprised though and confess my ignorance...!! smilies-15


Back on topic (given this is the uniform insignia forum and this thread was about the Army Sergeant Major...!), I've been collating these for a little while, to add to the pics kindly posted above. These are all pics borrowed from publicly available sources on the web.


First the appointment badge itself:
The official drawing
Army SM badge office large.jpg


As worn on PCS (combat uniform), with the General Staff tactical recognition flash worn above
Army SM badge with General Staff TRF (No8 PCS).jpeg



Uniforms:
(and I'm happy to be corrected on the technical designations for this or any of the other orders of dress by those who know better than I do!)

No 1 Dress (Ceremonial)
This is as posted above, so just here for completeness!
Army SM No1 ceremonial.jpg


No2 Dress
Note the Guards pattern forage cap but worn with the bullion General Staff cap badge
Army SM No2.jpg


No 4 Dress
With the Chief of the General Staff, both wearing the (officer only) stone-coloured warm weather Service Dress
Army SM and CGS No4.jpg


No 10 Mess Dress
Firstly, with the holders of the equivalent appointments in the RN and RAF -- note that the Warrant Officer of the Naval Service (WONS) has undifferentiated standard WO1 Royal Arms badges, whereas the Chief of the Air Staff's Warrant Officer (CASWO) has a recently authorised appointment badge with an additional laurel wreath, different to all other RAF WOs. I wonder if the RN will catch up at some point with a special appointment badge for the WONS? I suspect they won't, just on a point of principle...!
Army SM with WONS and CASWO mess dress.jpg


Secondly, the Army SM with the CGS again, but this time in No 10 mess dress. You can't see the ASM big badge but I thought the CGS in all his after-dinner finery might amuse you all...! Oh, and there's also some other bloke who used to be in the army, but he's just wearing a dinner jacket! smilies-15
Army SM and CGS No10 mess dress.jpg


PCS again:
we've seen something similar before so this is not a high-res photo; note the General Staff badge on his khaki Guards beret and the plain dark blue General Staff stable belt.
Army SM No8 PCS.jpg
Army SM No8 PCS.jpg (19.08 KiB) Viewed 1350 times


Finally, No 14 Dress, the short sleeve order variant of temperate barrack dress. Note again the Guards forage cap and General Staff cap badge with the General Staff stable belt.
Army SM No14 SSO (with forage cap).jpg
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Re: New British Army Appointment

Unread postby ChrisWI » Tue Jan 31, 2017 8:55 pm

I thought the No. 14 dress was only issued to the Bermuda Regiment and the Gibraltar Regiment?
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Re: New British Army Appointment

Unread postby Medic_in_Uniform » Wed Feb 01, 2017 11:10 am

ChrisWI wrote:I thought the No. 14 dress was only issued to the Bermuda Regiment and the Gibraltar Regiment?



14 or 4...?
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