It is currently Fri Nov 24, 2017 7:44 pm
Change font size

EUROPE - MILITARY BRANCH & RANK INSIGNIA

CSM Irish Guards

Army, Air Force, Navy, Marines

Moderators: Miklós Lovász, Dorward_Bis, Medic_in_Uniform, kaldi, Chuck Anderson, Pavel Močoch, Erskine Calderon, Lukasz Gaszewski, ChrisWI, Zdzislaw Rudzki, Peter

CSM Irish Guards

Unread postby Luke2 » Thu Jan 26, 2017 2:11 pm

Company Sergeant Major.jpg
Worn on the right sleeve, above the elbow
Source: http://www.irishguards.org.uk/pages/lif ... /rank.html

Is this peculiar to the Irish Guards, or common to all Foot Guards?
Attachments
Company Sergeant Major Irish Guards.jpg
Last edited by Luke2 on Thu Jan 26, 2017 2:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
Luke2
ADMINISTRATOR
ADMINISTRATOR
 
Posts: 555
Joined: Sun Jan 13, 2013 4:06 pm
Location: Sweden

Re: CSM Irish Guards

Unread postby SFMRAS » Thu Jan 26, 2017 2:23 pm

Luke2 wrote:
Company Sergeant Major.jpg

Source: http://www.irishguards.org.uk/pages/lif ... /rank.html

Is this peculiar to the Irish Guards, or common to all Foot Guards?

I believe each Guard has a different design for staff(color?) sergeants and WO II. Larger badges for WO I, sometimes superimposed over four chevrons.
SFMRAS
COMMUNICANT
COMMUNICANT
 
Posts: 136
Joined: Mon Oct 08, 2007 8:03 am

Re: CSM Irish Guards

Unread postby marcpasquin » Thu Jan 26, 2017 10:50 pm

SFMRAS wrote:
Luke2 wrote:
Company Sergeant Major.jpg

Source: http://www.irishguards.org.uk/pages/lif ... /rank.html

Is this peculiar to the Irish Guards, or common to all Foot Guards?

I believe each Guard has a different design for staff(color?) sergeants and WO II. Larger badges for WO I, sometimes superimposed over four chevrons.


you would be correct:

coldstream guard:

Image

welsh guard:

Image

grenadier guard:

Image
Marc Pasquin
marcpasquin
ADMINISTRATOR
ADMINISTRATOR
 
Posts: 358
Joined: Wed May 26, 2004 9:29 pm
Location: australia, formely quebec

Re: CSM Irish Guards

Unread postby Medic_in_Uniform » Mon Jan 30, 2017 3:22 am

Hi guys — this is a great topic and I'm surprised it hasn't come up here before.

The finer details of the insignia and the various embellishments with increasing rank for the full dress tunics for the Footguards regiments are not immediately apparent until you look closely at the different ranks. The main four groups are: Officers, Warrant Officers, Senior NCOs, Junior NCOs & guardsmen.

Marc, your top pic is the badge for the Scots Guards, with the Star of the Order of the Thistle.

This is the version for the Coldstream Guards, with the Star of the Order of the Garter:
ColdstreamCSM.jpg


On the uniform:
Note the Warrant Officer uniform embellishments of the gold lace to the collar, the two bands of gold lace around the cuffs and the gold lace that edges the cuff flaps and the buttonholes on the flaps. WOs also have gold piping around the edges of their shoulder straps; NCOs and guardsmen have plain white piping around the shoulder straps.
ColdstreamCSM-HSO.jpg


The same uniform, with bearskin cap, worn by a WO2 CSM of the Welsh Guards
WelshCSM.jpg


The back of the tunic
Guards WO back .jpg


I can't find a decent pic with the details of the Colour Sergeants full dress tunic being worn, so here's one on a hanger instead (!). I'll add one later if I can find a good one.

Note the plain dark blue collar but with badges in bullion. Senior NCOs also have gold lace to the button holes on the cuff flaps but, unlike warrant officers, there is no gold lace edging to the cuff flaps or around the cuffs. There is similar gold lace to the buttonholes on the rear skirt of the the tunic. Junior NCOs and guardsmen have white-laced buttonholes and plain white embroidered badges on collars and shoulder straps.

ColdstreamColSgt.jpg

ColdstreamColSgt back.jpg


Irish Guards colour sergeants with guardsmen (note also the red shoulder sashes worn by the sergeants)
guards - irish.jpg


Welsh Guards:
A non-CSM appointment WO2 (left, front), a Colour Sergeant (right, front), a Lance-Sergeant (appointment given to full Corporals in the Footguards regiments, right, back, with three white chevrons and plain cuffs/collar) and, just visible, a Sergeant (left, back, with three gold chevrons and gold buttonholes on the cuff flaps). Note that the senior NCOs and the WO wear white gloves, the junior NCO does not. The sergeants' sashes are red, the WO's sash is crimson. Oh, and the Warrant Officer wears a sword!
Welsh Guards.jpg



The special badge of the Colours, surmounted by a Crown with crossed swords below, is specific to the appointment of WO2 CSM. Non-CSM WOs2 wear the standard crown/wreath insignia of the WO2 rank (as in the pic above).

For a Colour Sergeant, the badge is worn over the three stripes of a sergeant in gold lace on the full dress tunic and a smaller version is worn over chevrons created in outline with gold soutache in No1 Dress (blue patrol tunic). The equivalent ranks of Colour Sergeant / Staff Sergeant in non-Guards regiments and corps wear a crown above three chevrons.

Similarly, the BIG bullion embroidered Royal Arms badge, worn above the elbow, is specific to the WO1 RSM appointment and other WOs1 wear the more usual Royal arms badge of the WO1 rank (most commonly seen in the regimental bands).

The Big Badge worn over four chevrons, again, above the elbow, is unique to the appointment of Garrison Sergeant Major, London District and was re-instated in 2011. Prior to this, the GSM wore the same Big Badge as the RSMs of the various Footguards regiments.

GSM with RSM:
GSM with RSM.jpg


The current GSM London District:
GSM_LonDIst.jpg




If you're interested, the UNIFORMOLOGY site is a great resource for good pics of badges of the British Army. I won't steal their images, better that you go take a look:
http://www.uniformology.com/BADGE00.html

smilies-15
Medic_in_Uniform
ADMINISTRATOR
ADMINISTRATOR
 
Posts: 469
Joined: Sun Jan 07, 2007 7:33 pm

Re: CSM Irish Guards

Unread postby Luke2 » Tue Jan 31, 2017 1:04 pm

@Medic in uniform: Thank you! That was very informative; especially that only certain appointments are wearing the special rank badges.

In the photo below, I assume the WO to the right of the Duchess is the RQMS. The difference in colour btw the WO's and the Sergeants' sashes is clear in this picture. I have never noticed it before. The Duke's sash looks darker, but that might be with the contrast to his blue uniform.

Finally, I take it that WO's outside the Guards do not wear swords?
Attachments
30933795-reuters_britain_.jpg
User avatar
Luke2
ADMINISTRATOR
ADMINISTRATOR
 
Posts: 555
Joined: Sun Jan 13, 2013 4:06 pm
Location: Sweden

Re: CSM Irish Guards

Unread postby Medic_in_Uniform » Wed Feb 01, 2017 11:09 am

Hi Luke! Glad to be able to help!

Yes, you're right, the officer-type crimson waist sash is an even darker shade and a different material. Different again are the gold and crimson sashes that the officers wear for full State ceremonial when the Sovereign is present, but the gold State kit is probably almost a post in itself!

Note also the variations in the metal and embroidered embellishments on the "slashed" peaks of the forage caps worn by the Guards regiments. These vary by rank for warrant officers, senior NCOs, junior NCOs and guardsmen. It's not obvious from the image here (just the RSM, the two WO2s and some sergeants behind them!) but if you could see the full Regiment then the range works something like this:

Lance Corporal and Guardsman – brass binding around peak edge only

Lance Sergeant (Corporal), Sergeant, Colour Sergeant – brass binding, with additional concentric brass strips on the peak inside the binding

Warrant Officers – black edge binding with concentric rows of gold soutache braid

I can't remember the exact details (I'd have to look them up...!) but you get the general idea and you can see the Sergeants' pattern and the WOs' pattern in the photo.
Medic_in_Uniform
ADMINISTRATOR
ADMINISTRATOR
 
Posts: 469
Joined: Sun Jan 07, 2007 7:33 pm

Re: CSM Irish Guards

Unread postby Medic_in_Uniform » Wed Feb 01, 2017 11:42 am

Oh and, yes, WOs from other units definitely do wear swords!

Equally, WOs will also march in formation with the other ranks carrying rifle, even the RSM if he wants to see how a particular drill is working from the "inside."

For some phenomenally detailed photographs of the Houshold Division in all their finery, it's worth visiting https://www.haraldjoergens.com/galleries/trooping-the-colour/

I have no connection to this site, commercial or otherwise (!), I just like his photos! A very god way to spot the differences in the uniforms. If you look carefully, there's also the general officer variant of the scarlet full dress tunic, with heavy bullion embroidered oakleaves on collar, cuffs and skirts, as worn (with plumed cocked hat, obviously...) by the Major-General commanding the Household Division.

smilies-15
Medic_in_Uniform
ADMINISTRATOR
ADMINISTRATOR
 
Posts: 469
Joined: Sun Jan 07, 2007 7:33 pm

Re: CSM Irish Guards

Unread postby Luke2 » Wed Feb 01, 2017 9:33 pm

prince-william--z.jpg


It seems that the intricacies of the Foot Guards in full dress can amuse us for a long time. Here is the next question: This guy has a cocked hat; he is not a general, but who/what is he?
Attachments
The_Duke_also_presented_a_sprig_to_the_regiment_s_mascot.jpg
User avatar
Luke2
ADMINISTRATOR
ADMINISTRATOR
 
Posts: 555
Joined: Sun Jan 13, 2013 4:06 pm
Location: Sweden

Re: CSM Irish Guards

Unread postby Medic_in_Uniform » Thu Feb 02, 2017 1:04 am

Oh yes...!! There are a whole variety of different quirks, beginning with the subtle variations of the full dress / home service dress and who wears the forage cap with the scarlet tunic and who wears the full bearskin cap (and when). Then there are the officer frock coats...

The best pics for some of these things are again seen in the photos of the Queen's Birthday Parade (better known as Trooping the Colour) and other ceremonial events which is where you will see the the whole gamut of our uniform minutiae! Only here will you see the General Officer and General Staff Officer full dress uniforms and their cocked hats with their big, drooping white and scarlet plumes.

To answer your question, I'm not 100% sure but, if I recall correctly, the cocked hat, with upright plume of the same colour as those worn on the regimental full dress bearskin caps, is specific to the appointment of regimental Quartermaster. Again, not 100% sure but I think this is usually a former warrant officer commissioned in the rank of Captain and appointed to this role (not to be confused with the WO2 appointment of RQMS).

If you scroll through, there are some nice photos of the Quartermasters of several of the footguards regiments in this collection of images taken around the ceremonial presentation of new colours to the Welsh Guards a bit over a year ago:

http://flickriver-lb-1710691658.us-east-1.elb.amazonaws.com/photos/32892154@N04/sets/72157652271805761/
Medic_in_Uniform
ADMINISTRATOR
ADMINISTRATOR
 
Posts: 469
Joined: Sun Jan 07, 2007 7:33 pm

Re: CSM Irish Guards

Unread postby Luke2 » Sat Feb 04, 2017 1:27 pm

Master Taylor Lance Sergeant Matthew Else.jpg
Master Tailor Lance Sergeant Matthew Else


Another quirky question: If Mr. Else is a Lance sergeant, why isn' he in uniform?
User avatar
Luke2
ADMINISTRATOR
ADMINISTRATOR
 
Posts: 555
Joined: Sun Jan 13, 2013 4:06 pm
Location: Sweden

Re: CSM Irish Guards

Unread postby Medic_in_Uniform » Tue Feb 07, 2017 12:55 am

It's still a rather natty look though...! smilies-15

I bet he could answer all our trivia questions -- and without having to look anything up...!
Medic_in_Uniform
ADMINISTRATOR
ADMINISTRATOR
 
Posts: 469
Joined: Sun Jan 07, 2007 7:33 pm

Re: CSM Irish Guards

Unread postby Luke2 » Wed Feb 08, 2017 3:50 pm

Colour-Sergeant-Master-Tailor-Scots-Guards.jpg
Colour-Sergeant-Master-Tailor-Scots-Guards.jpg (17.69 KiB) Viewed 2333 times
I am sure Sergeant Else has sewn his own suit. I wonder if the fancy stick he is holding is some kind of old yardstick, once used for measurements by army tailors. Searching the Internet, I found that as least as late as during WW1, every British regiment had a Sergeant Master Tailor. They seem to have been in uniform though.
User avatar
Luke2
ADMINISTRATOR
ADMINISTRATOR
 
Posts: 555
Joined: Sun Jan 13, 2013 4:06 pm
Location: Sweden

Re: CSM Irish Guards

Unread postby marcpasquin » Wed Feb 08, 2017 8:48 pm

a question about the lance-sergeant. First sorry if it sounds insulting as its not intended to be but isn't he a bit short to be a guard ? I thought they had height requirement.
Marc Pasquin
marcpasquin
ADMINISTRATOR
ADMINISTRATOR
 
Posts: 358
Joined: Wed May 26, 2004 9:29 pm
Location: australia, formely quebec

Re: CSM Irish Guards

Unread postby Necrothesp » Tue Mar 21, 2017 4:32 pm

Medic_in_Uniform wrote:To answer your question, I'm not 100% sure but, if I recall correctly, the cocked hat, with upright plume of the same colour as those worn on the regimental full dress bearskin caps, is specific to the appointment of regimental Quartermaster. Again, not 100% sure but I think this is usually a former warrant officer commissioned in the rank of Captain and appointed to this role (not to be confused with the WO2 appointment of RQMS).


Yes, the QM is still always commissioned from the ranks as a captain. He's usually a former RSM and therefore often the most experienced soldier in the battalion. QMs can be further promoted to major and lieutenant-colonel (although the latter would obviously be serving in an HQ appointment and not with a battalion, as otherwise he'd be equal in rank to the CO!).

Another interesting fact. A Guards QM continues to wear the ORs' bearskin (made from the fur of the male bear) and not the officers' bearskin (made from the softer fur of the female bear). If you look closely you can see the two types of bearskin are subtly different. He has also, of course, always been entitled to wear the Long Service and Good Conduct Medal, which officers who had never served in the ranks were not. It was always a good way to tell whether an officer had been commissioned from the ranks or not. Although the rules were changed in 2016 so now all officers are eligible.
Necrothesp
CORRESPONDENT
CORRESPONDENT
 
Posts: 195
Joined: Wed Jan 14, 2004 1:00 am
Location: Kenilworth, England

Re: CSM Irish Guards

Unread postby Necrothesp » Tue Mar 21, 2017 4:35 pm

Luke2 wrote:Another quirky question: If Mr. Else is a Lance sergeant, why isn' he in uniform?


Although army tailors who are serving soldiers (and also those who are not, I believe) do obviously have a uniform, I believe the outfit worn here is quite commonly worn when checking uniform. One of those little quirks we've been discussing...
Necrothesp
CORRESPONDENT
CORRESPONDENT
 
Posts: 195
Joined: Wed Jan 14, 2004 1:00 am
Location: Kenilworth, England

Re: CSM Irish Guards

Unread postby Medic_in_Uniform » Wed Mar 22, 2017 10:11 am

Thanks, Necrothesp -- good to know my memory isn't failing me yet!

I hadn't spotted the minor detail of the QM continuing to wear OR bearskin, so thanks for that. Do you know what the criteria are for wearing the cocked hat vs. the bearskin? I'm guessing it's something to do with being formally on parade in formation (bearskin) vs. being in attendance at the parade (cocked hat) ...?

Just thinking about the pics above, I noticed that the CO (I assume its the CO, given the rank markings) is in shirt sleeve service dress while inspecting men in full dress. The Footguards being what they are, shouldn't he be in blue patrols or frock coat or something? Not that it matters...
Medic_in_Uniform
ADMINISTRATOR
ADMINISTRATOR
 
Posts: 469
Joined: Sun Jan 07, 2007 7:33 pm

Re: CSM Irish Guards

Unread postby Necrothesp » Wed Mar 22, 2017 11:00 am

Medic_in_Uniform wrote:Just thinking about the pics above, I noticed that the CO (I assume its the CO, given the rank markings) is in shirt sleeve service dress while inspecting men in full dress. The Footguards being what they are, shouldn't he be in blue patrols or frock coat or something? Not that it matters...


I'm guessing it's a rehearsal, hence the presence of the tailor in civvies, and therefore not a formal inspection.
Necrothesp
CORRESPONDENT
CORRESPONDENT
 
Posts: 195
Joined: Wed Jan 14, 2004 1:00 am
Location: Kenilworth, England

Re: CSM Irish Guards

Unread postby Medic_in_Uniform » Wed Mar 22, 2017 11:06 am

Yes indeed! Or even just some sort of uniform / tailoring inspection?

As to the Master Tailor, the double-breasted striped suit with homburg hat practically IS their traditional uniform, isn't it...?!

smilies-15
Medic_in_Uniform
ADMINISTRATOR
ADMINISTRATOR
 
Posts: 469
Joined: Sun Jan 07, 2007 7:33 pm

Advertisement

Email Converter - our sponsor


Return to EUROPE - MILITARY BRANCH & RANK INSIGNIA

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 4 guests

cron

Search

User Menu