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GENERAL DISCUSSIONS (Rank comparison, translation issues etc)

STANAG 2116 Rank Comparison

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STANAG 2116 Rank Comparison

Unread postby GCS » Tue Dec 06, 2005 10:02 am

After following the thread "Universal Translations" I was wondering why / how the NCO ranks for each country where choosen and if it is correct to say that e.g. OR-5 is the lowest NCO that leads a squad.

It would be great when someone from each country included in the STANAG could have a look and give some insight to each OR.

I believe, if done in an objective way, it might help us to understand the different OR ranks and offer the opportunity to fill in other nations not included by certain criteria.

German Army

Mannschaften
OR-1 Grenadier (Recrut, attends basic training)
OR-2 Gefreiter (Finished basic training, special training in respect of his
branch of service)
OR-3 Hauptgefreiter, Obergefreiter (pretty much the standard enlisted
soldier of a squad or working in his specialised position e.g.
maintenance)
OR-4 Oberstabsgefreiter, Stabsgefreiter (experienced enlisted soldier,
either doing the same as OR-3 or sometimes taking over small
leading duties)

Unteroffiziere ohne Portepee
OR-5 Stabsunteroffizier, Unteroffizier (Until two years ago the standard
squad, vehicle leader. Now mainly heads a specialist squad in a
platoon or company e.g. supply)

Unteroffiziere mit Portepee
OR-6 Oberfeldwebel, Feldwebel (Standard squad, vehicle leader.
Sometimes leads platoons in basic training)
OR-7 Hauptfeldwebel (either platoon leader, working in a staff position or
hold the office of "Spieß/First Sergeant" in a company)
OR-8 Stabsfeldwebel, Hauptfeldwebel (more or less same as OR-7 but
hold more senior positions)
OR-9 Oberstabsfeldwebel (Top NCO rank. Often highest NCO in a
bataillon, either first sergeant or in a staff position)

If only looking at the German OR Rank the following is true:

OR-5 First NCO with real command authority

OR-6 Standard NCO / Squad leader

OR-7+ Senior NCO


It would be great if someone from the following countries could do the same:

Belgium
Canada
Denmark
France
Greece
Italy
Netherlands
Norway
Portugal
Spain
Turkey
UK
US

One link for the STANAG is
http://rankmaven.tripod.com/NATO-92-RM.htm
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Unread postby valtrex » Tue Dec 06, 2005 12:43 pm

Greek Army-Ellinikos Stratos

OR-1 Hoplites (Private, basic training trainee, no insignia)
OR-2 Ephedros Ypopsephios Vathmophoros (Recruit NCO candidate)
Image
OR-3 Ypodekaneas (3a) and Hoplites Vathmophoros (3b) (3a-Lance Corporal, 3b-Enlisted Private).
(3a): In our tradition, Lance Corporal is not a rank but an honorary appointment, held only by draftees. (3b): Enlisted Professional Private. Finished basic training, special training in respect of his branch of service)
(3a)Image(3b)Image
OR-4 Ephedros Dekaneas (4a), Dekaneas Hoplites Vathmophoros, Dekaneas Pentaetous Ypochreosis, Dekaneas Ethelontees Monimis Theteas (4b)
(4a-Draftee Corporal, 4b-Enlisted Corporal, Enlisted for five years Corporal, Long-term Enlisted Corporal). Draftee Corporal serves as leader of the smallest Army unit, principally; team leader. Enlisted Corporals (under the revised Army Regulations) command an individual tank, or a gun's crew in artillery. Draftee Corporal is subordinate to the Enlisted one. Enlisted Corporal is equivalent to the Senior Corporal's rank in other armies
(4a)Image(4b)Image
OR-5 Ephedros Lochias (5a), Lochias Pentaetous Ypochresosis, Lochias Ethelontees Monimis Theteas (5b), Monimos Lochias (5c)
(5a-Draftee Sergeant, 5b-Enlisted for five years Sergeant, Long-term enlisted Sergeant, 5c-Career Sergeant). Draftee Sergeant is the backbone of the Greek Army. Sergeants are responsible for the individual training, personal appearance and cleanliness of their soldiers. He is the Drill Instructor, Drill Sergeant, or Military Training Instructor of the Army. Enlisted Sgts (according to the law 2936) are entrusted with the tasks of logistic and administrative support. Career Sergeant is the Non Commissioned Officers School graduate of the Hellenic Army. [I'm quoting from the official web-page of the Hellenic Army-Non Commissioned Officers School:].."With their graduation from the School, students are called Regular Sergeants and continue their training in the Schools of Arms-Corps to which they have been appointed, where they get specialized knowledge on their specialty. After completing a year of service they have the right to take part in exams for entering the Military Academy as candidates of a special category which consists of the 20% on the total number of candidates. The subjects of the exams are those taken in the National Level Examinations chosen by the Military Academy. The Non Commissioned Officers, after graduating the School, undertake the obligation of serving the Army for 5 years. They are promoted to the rank of the Warrant Officer after serving for 9-12 years in the ranks of Sergeant - 1st Sergeant - Master Sergeant. With their promotion to Second Lieutenants they are in the Officers lists and they continue to gain advancement. A sufficient number of Non Commissioned Officers is chosen, trained and staffs the Special Forces as paratroopers, commandos, marines and frogmen. Moreover, they can serve with the Army Aviation as helicopter pilots and mechanics or in a Research-Computing Office after being trained as Computer Programmers. Since NCOS belongs the higher level of education, its graduates can enroll in a Technological Educational Institution or University either by taking exams or not. NCOS graduates who obtain a University Degree are given the chance, after having reached the rank of Second Lieutenant, to advance to the rank of Lieutenant Colonel or even Colonel according to the new law on promotions of Non Commissioned Officers"
(5a)Image(5b)Image(5c)Image
OR-6 Monimos Epilochias (Career 1st Sergeant). 1st Sergeant assists the captain in the supervision of the company's operations and is responsible for the administrative work of the Company. He also holds the Quartermaster Sergeant's duties. Because the list of responsibilities make him the busiest man in the Army, it is in our tradition that in many cases, Draftee Sgts. keep the company descriptive book (this book listed the name, age, height, place of birth, and prior occupation of every enlisted man in the unit). When this is done, then the Draftee Sgt. is an "acting 1st. Sergeant"
Image
OR-7 Monimos Archilochias (Career Master Sergeant). The master sergeant serves as the principal NCO in staff elements at battalion and higher levels
Image
OR-8. No equivalent
OR-9 Anthypaspistees (Warrant Officer). Warrant officers are technical officer specialists who perform duties that are technically oriented and acquired through experience and training and that are limited in scope in relation to other officer categories. In the Greek Army he holds the position of the paymaster of the Army
Image
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Unread postby Guest » Wed Dec 07, 2005 7:03 pm

OR-9 Anthypaspistees (Warrant Officer). Warrant officers are technical officer specialists who perform duties that are technically oriented and acquired through experience and training and that are limited in scope in relation to other officer categories. In the Greek Army he holds the position of the paymaster of the Army


This rank appears to have the same function as the US Warrant Officers (Stanag WO1-WO5). Do the Greek Army regard 'Anthypaspistees' as Officers or NCOs?
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Unread postby Guest » Wed Dec 07, 2005 7:28 pm

Anonymous wrote:OR-9 Anthypaspistees (Warrant Officer). Warrant officers are technical officer specialists who perform duties that are technically oriented and acquired through experience and training and that are limited in scope in relation to other officer categories. In the Greek Army he holds the position of the paymaster of the Army


This rank appears to have the same function as the US Warrant Officers (Stanag WO1-WO5). Do the Greek Army regard 'Anthypaspistees' as Officers or NCOs?


I've noticed Wikipedia classifies 'Anthypaspistees' as a 'WO1' not an 'OR9' under the NATO rank classifications. Which is correct?
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Unread postby valtrex » Thu Dec 08, 2005 2:43 pm

Anonymous wrote:OR-9 Anthypaspistees (Warrant Officer). Warrant officers are technical officer specialists who perform duties that are technically oriented and acquired through experience and training and that are limited in scope in relation to other officer categories. In the Greek Army he holds the position of the paymaster of the Army


This rank appears to have the same function as the US Warrant Officers (Stanag WO1-WO5). Do the Greek Army regard 'Anthypaspistees' as Officers or NCOs?


Act 445/1974:

Article 3

"Warrant Officer is the intermediate-rank title between NCOs & Officers"
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Unread postby valtrex » Thu Dec 08, 2005 2:54 pm

Anonymous wrote:I've noticed Wikipedia classifies 'Anthypaspistees' as a 'WO1' not an 'OR9' under the NATO rank classifications. Which is correct?


Actually, you're right , sorry, my mistake...btw, an Anthypaspistees has between 12-15 years of service in the Armed Forces...would this make him/her WO1 or WO2?
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Unread postby valtrex » Thu Dec 08, 2005 3:17 pm

One thing I've just noticed, is that Wikipedia classifies Draftee Candidate Officer
Image
as WO1. The correct classification should have been Student Officer
Wikipedia also classifies OF-D as non-existent in the Greek Army...
Draftee 2nd.Lt. though, (Ephedros Anthypolochagos)
Image
should have been classified as Officer Designate (OF-D)
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Unread postby Guest » Thu Dec 08, 2005 4:12 pm

valtrex wrote:
Anonymous wrote:I've noticed Wikipedia classifies 'Anthypaspistees' as a 'WO1' not an 'OR9' under the NATO rank classifications. Which is correct?


Actually, you're right , sorry, my mistake...btw, an Anthypaspistees has between 12-15 years of service in the Armed Forces...would this make him/her WO1 or WO2?


In the British Army, someone with 12-15 years of service would likely be a Staff Sergeant (OR7) but could (just) be a WO2. However if Anthypaspistees is classified as an 'OR9' then it is equivalent to a WO1 in the British Army or a Sergeant Major/ Command Sergeant Major in the US Army.

It's interesting however that the Senior NCO in a Greek Battalion, Monimos Archilochias (Career Master Sergeant) is only an 'OR7', whereas in the British Army, he would be an 'OR9' (WO1 Regimental Sergeant Major). Although some British WOs are technical specialists, the Greek Warrant Officer rank appears to have a role closer to that of the US Warrant Officer.

How does the Greek Messing system work? In the British Army, there is an 'Officers Mess' (US 'Officers Club') for Commissioned Ranks and a 'Warrant Officers and Sergeants Mess' for Sergeants, Staff Sergeants and Warrant Officers. Does Anthypaspistees mess with Officers or NCOs?

Sorry this is posted as 'Anonymous' - I've forgotten my password and can't seem to get another one. LONDON
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Unread postby valtrex » Thu Dec 08, 2005 6:40 pm

[quote="Anonymous]
How does the Greek Messing system work? In the British Army, there is an 'Officers Mess' (US 'Officers Club') for Commissioned Ranks and a 'Warrant Officers and Sergeants Mess' for Sergeants, Staff Sergeants and Warrant Officers. Does Anthypaspistees mess with Officers or NCOs?

Sorry this is posted as 'Anonymous' - I've forgotten my password and can't seem to get another one. LONDON[/quote]

Almost the same down here. There's an Officers Mess (Leschi Axiomatikon/Officers Club) for Officers & a Non-Commissioned Officers Mess (NCOs Club/Leschi Ypaxiomatikon) for Career Sgts & WOs
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Unread postby Peter » Thu Dec 08, 2005 10:22 pm

Dear GCS,

In my humble opinion not the Nato and not the US system of rankinsigniacategories are very useful. There are to much difference in categories, paygrades and examinitionsystems. An example: in Netherland a Corporal is by law an NCO, with NCO education and training of about 3 months. Te become a Corporal First Class you have to get 2-3 years experience as ones was told me by a Dutch Corporal First Class. They also have there own Mess, Privates have another. In Belgium a First Corporal Chief has more than 23 years of experience but he is never an NCO and will use his meal in the Private and Corporals Mess. Only Sergeant till Adjutant Major are NCO's in Belgium.
At this moment I am working on a system that will include all kinds of rankcategories of the ENTIRE world but this will take some time.
Peter MEIJLAERS
Candidate Hierarchiologist
3900 Overpelt, Limburg, BELGIUM
hierarkiologio@yahoo.com
Intrests are: Scientific study of Hierarchiology, Hierarchy, Ranks, Grades, Orders, Decorations, Heraldry, etc
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Unread postby Zdzislaw Rudzki » Fri Dec 09, 2005 12:27 am

Peter
Creating such an universal system is my idea (if not to say obsession) for many years. I would like also to include police and other services "ranks" into it (which is quite easy for Poland, even easier for Soviet Union, but almost impossible for USA). If I can help you in any way - let me know. My email is z.rudzki@zep.pl
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Unread postby Peter » Fri Dec 09, 2005 1:31 am

Zdzislaw Rudzki wrote:Peter
Creating such an universal system is my idea (if not to say obsession) for many years. I would like also to include police and other services "ranks" into it (which is quite easy for Poland, even easier for Soviet Union, but almost impossible for USA). If I can help you in any way - let me know. My email is z.rudzki@zep.pl
Dear Rudzki,

When I mean entire would I ment entire would, so Police and even Pencilpointers First Class, if it ever my exist, will also be included.
Also the differences about examinations, paygrade and whatever me exist I will try to include.
Yours faithfully,

P.S. Did you got the Nursing insignia in a good state. Or was it somebody else I sended them to?
Peter MEIJLAERS
Candidate Hierarchiologist
3900 Overpelt, Limburg, BELGIUM
hierarkiologio@yahoo.com
Intrests are: Scientific study of Hierarchiology, Hierarchy, Ranks, Grades, Orders, Decorations, Heraldry, etc
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Unread postby GCS » Fri Dec 09, 2005 8:59 am

Peter wrote:Dear GCS,

In my humble opinion not the Nato and not the US system of rankinsigniacategories are very useful. There are to much difference in categories, paygrades and examinitionsystems. An example: in Netherland a Corporal is by law an NCO, with NCO education and training of about 3 months. Te become a Corporal First Class you have to get 2-3 years experience as ones was told me by a Dutch Corporal First Class. They also have there own Mess, Privates have another. In Belgium a First Corporal Chief has more than 23 years of experience but he is never an NCO and will use his meal in the Private and Corporals Mess. Only Sergeant till Adjutant Major are NCO's in Belgium.
At this moment I am working on a system that will include all kinds of rankcategories of the ENTIRE world but this will take some time.



@Peter:
Hello Peter,

while I understand that the difference in lenth of service or training is an issue the STANAG takes a different approch I believe and classifies OR by leading authority and not length of service. Since the STANAG is used in mulitnational exercises and staffs and therefore is of some importance I believe that every nation has taken part in the classification and found a compromise.

Does it really matter if a NCO had 4 or 6 years of service before leading, say a squad? I believe what matters is that fact that in that country he does lead the squad after 4 years and therefore has equal responsiblities and standing as the NCO of another nation with 6 years of service that does the same job.

I am glad that you try to create and would be happy to support any different, even more balanced, approch, but I fear that because of the different historical context this will take a long time.
Why not use a system that is in existence, even if it has some minor flaws.

By getting some inside knowledge of every country included in the STANAG certain "global rules" could be found out (e.g. leading responsibility from OR-5 onward) and give every visitor of the page an basic understanding of what this certain rank does. While there will always be some discrepancies I trust they will be minor and do not cloud the whole picture.

@All:
BTW the STANAG list on wikipedia seems to differ from the written version on the internet. I rather trust the written version since in a grafic display (like the wikipedia one) often grafic issues cause mistakes. E.g. the written version ranks the Anthypaspistis as OR-9 and shows no WO for Greece so I'd rather trust that list. But as mentioned above this should be a minor issue and not cause problems when comparing the Greek Army to another army.

Take good care and have a nice day,

GCS
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Unread postby Guest » Fri Dec 09, 2005 11:15 am

GCS wrote:
@All:
BTW the STANAG list on wikipedia seems to differ from the written version on the internet. I rather trust the written version since in a grafic display (like the wikipedia one) often grafic issues cause mistakes. E.g. the written version ranks the Anthypaspistis as OR-9 and shows no WO for Greece so I'd rather trust that list. But as mentioned above this should be a minor issue and not cause problems when comparing the Greek Army to another army.

GCS


The Wikipedia 'NATO' rank list has a fair number of errors, but then it is an unofficial list. The official STANAG list is the only one that can be relied upon.

LONDON
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Unread postby Peter » Fri Dec 09, 2005 11:15 am

Dear GCS,

It is not only about putting every rank into his category, no, it is also a matter of making every rankcategory visible to everybody. That is important. And that is what I am trying to do.
Peter MEIJLAERS
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Intrests are: Scientific study of Hierarchiology, Hierarchy, Ranks, Grades, Orders, Decorations, Heraldry, etc
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Unread postby Guest » Fri Dec 09, 2005 11:47 am

British Army

Soldiers (The title varies according to the Regiment/Corps)

OR1 Private (trainee)

OR2 Private

Junior NCOs

OR3 Lance-Corporal Section second-in-command

OR4 Corporal Section Commander (Can be appointed in OR5 positions within NATO)

Senior NCOs

OR5/6 Sergeant Platoon Sergeant (Second in command of a platoon)

OR7 Staff Sergeant (Known as Colour Sergeant in Infantry) Appointed as Company or Squadron Quartermaster Sergeant (CQMS or SQMS)

Warrant Officers - appointed by a 'Warrant ' from the Secretary of State for Defence.

OR8 Warrant Officer Class Two - Senior non-commissioned rank in a Comapny or Squadron assisting the Company or Squadron Commander (Company Sergeant Major or Squadron Sergeant Major).
Also senior non-commissioned rank assisting the Quartermaster (Regimental Quartermaster Sergeant). Other WO2s might hold senior technical roles.

OR9 Warrant Officer Class One - Senior non-commissioned rank responsible to the Commanding Officer of the Regiment (Regimental Sergeant Major). Other WO1s might have senior advisory/ technical roles.
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Unread postby Zdzislaw Rudzki » Fri Dec 09, 2005 7:37 pm

Dear All
One of Russian members of our forum prepared the table comparing Russian federation ranks of various military - law enforcement - civilian sevices. This is a kind of renewed "Table of Ranks" ("Tabel' o Rangah") - as it was created in 19th century :)
http://gossluzhba.narod.ru/ranks/ru/index.html
Unfortunately this website is in Russian but very informative.
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Unread postby Peter » Fri Dec 09, 2005 10:35 pm

Dear Rudzki,

Maybe its very informative, but I can not read a word of it. Maybe you can start translating it in English. Have a nice job (=joking).
Peter MEIJLAERS
Candidate Hierarchiologist
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Exército Portuguęs (Portuguese Army)

Unread postby ottolima » Mon Dec 12, 2005 10:54 pm

[font=Arial]
The correct Portuguese rank charts can be found in the Ministry of National Defence official website:

http://www.mdn.gov.pt/Defesa/Simbolos/exercito.htm
http://www.mdn.gov.pt/Defesa/Simbolos/marinha.htm
http://www.mdn.gov.pt/Defesa/Simbolos/faerea.htm

Here is the correct rank chart of Portuguese Army (Exército Portuguęs) and Air Force (Força Aérea Portuguesa), according STANAG 2116:

Junior NCO's and Soldiers:

OR1 - Soldado
OR2 - Segundo-cabo
OR3 - Primeiro-cabo
OR4 - Cabo-adjunto

Senior NCO's:

OR5 - Furriel, Segundo-furriel
OR6 - Primeiro-sargento, Segundo-sargento

Warrant Officers:

OR7 - Sargento-ajudante
OR8 - Sargento-chefe
OR9 - Sargento-mor


And here is the correct Portuguese Navy (Marinha Portuguesa) rank chart:

Junior Ratings:

OR1 - Grumete
OR2 - Segundo-marinheiro
OR3 - Primeiro-marinheiro
OR4 - Cabo

Senior Ratings:

OR5 - Primeiro-subsargento, Segundo-subsargento
OR6 - Primeiro-sargento, Segundo-sargento

Warrant Officers:

OR7 - Sargento-ajudante
OR8 - Sargento-chefe
OR9 - Sargento-mor

[/font]
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Unread postby welfare » Thu Mar 02, 2006 11:54 pm

Anonymous wrote:
GCS wrote:
@All:
BTW the STANAG list on wikipedia seems to differ from the written version on the internet. I rather trust the written version since in a grafic display (like the wikipedia one) often grafic issues cause mistakes. E.g. the written version ranks the Anthypaspistis as OR-9 and shows no WO for Greece so I'd rather trust that list. But as mentioned above this should be a minor issue and not cause problems when comparing the Greek Army to another army.

GCS


The Wikipedia 'NATO' rank list has a fair number of errors, but then it is an unofficial list. The official STANAG list is the only one that can be relied upon.

LONDON

But I can´t find new NATO member states´ ranks comparison for example Slovakia, Czech Republic...
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Unread postby welfare » Thu Mar 02, 2006 11:58 pm

I meant in official Stanag list. Is there newer than Edition 5 of Stanag 2116 available to download?
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