US Space Force

[marcpasquin]

US Space Force. Loosely based on modern day US Air Force.

us space force

Full size:

http://marcpasquin.deviantart.com/art/US-Space-force-table-big-572891155

[dcfowler]

The biggest problem that I see would be difficulty in distinguishing the senior NCO rank insignia. They would look the same from a distance.

[marcpasquin]

The biggest problem that I see would be difficulty in distinguishing the senior NCO rank insignia. They would look the same from a distance.

to a greater level then the USAF ones ?

[Dorward_Bis]

Hmmm.... These rank insignias look a bit non-ergonomic. Of course, this is just my opinion)

[marcpasquin]

Hmmm.... These rank insignias look a bit non-ergonomic. Of course, this is just my opinion)

not sure what you mean. Is it that they seem uncomfortable to wear ?

[Dorward_Bis]

Marc, I mean they are a bit uncomfortable to indetify the rank immediatuly, one should spend some time to calculate number of arcs etc - by the way, same as for modern USAF enlisted and NCOs rank insignias. But, I repeat once again - this is just my opinion:)

[marcpasquin]

But, I repeat once again - this is just my opinion:)

I posted the image so I could get feedback so opinion welcome. I might think of something and revisit later on.

[Miklós Lovász]

viewtopic.php?f=125&t=5363

True, this was about an all-human space force, but it does have some distinctly US-based insignia, courtesy of oour own medic-in-Uniform.

[dcfowler]

to a greater level then the USAF ones ?

Yes. With each chevron or rocker, the USAF insignia gets bigger. These are locked within a common shape and size, so that sort of distinguishing characteristic would be lost on the viewer.

[marcpasquin]

to a greater level then the USAF ones ?

Yes. With each chevron or rocker, the USAF insignia gets bigger. These are locked within a common shape and size, so that sort of distinguishing characteristic would be lost on the viewer.

But the 4 topmost ranks (which is what I assumed you were referring to) are only distinguished by a small symbol in the "void" or around the central star with their size being identical so I'm not sure if the rank insignias aboce would indeed be that much harder to tell apart from a distance.

[Dorward_Bis]

Well, as I know, the human's eye is capable to tell apart three same shapes "glued together" or four same shapes "placed apart" immediatuly. The fourth shape in the first case and the fifth shape in the second case require a bit more time to identify the number of shapes (the eye has to calculate them).

Actually, imho again, among most acceptable rank insignia systems (for enlisted and NCOs particularly) are UK, USA (Army and Marines) and some of ex-Soviet Armies.

[dcfowler]

But the 4 topmost ranks (which is what I assumed you were referring to) are only distinguished by a small symbol in the "void" or around the central star with their size being identical so I'm not sure if the rank insignias aboce would indeed be that much harder to tell apart from a distance.

For the E-9s, there is a significant blank space between the stripes and the rockers. 1st Sgt adds a lozenge, Command CMSgt adds a star. CMSAF has very little blank space at all. I suppose a lozenge and a star might be hard to distinguish at a distance, but my experience is that otherwise, you can tell them apart pretty well from far away. These seem more scrunched together, and would be harder to tell apart.

When a USSF comes about, it will undoubtably come from the USAF, and I imagine the stripes will align closely with the Air Force, the way that Coast Guard insignia hews closely to the Navy's. Dave

[venqax]

Not sure what some of the comments mean. The real USAF insignia are only distinguished by progressive numbers of chevrons. Same with the Army and Marines (arcs, or rockers). And the various E-9 types are, in fact, noted only by the symbols in the void between the chevrons and rockers. So what is different about these? One thing though: Since in the US system silver out-ranks gold, it doesn't really makes sense that the singular, highest ranking enlisted man would have gold instead of silver insignia. Just my opinion. Great artwork.

[SFMRAS]

Not sure what some of the comments mean. The real USAF insignia are only distinguished by progressive numbers of chevrons. Same with the Army and Marines (arcs, or rockers). And the various E-9 types are, in fact, noted only by the symbols in the void between the chevrons and rockers. So what is different about these? One thing though: Since in the US system silver out-ranks gold, it doesn't really makes sense that the singular, highest ranking enlisted man would have gold instead of silver insignia. Just my opinion. Great artwork.

Not always.
General Pershing wore four gold stars as a General of the Army, while other generals wore four stars.
Command master chief petty officers have two silver stars above the arc and a silver star between the arc and the chevron, while the force master chief petty officers wear the same insignia, but with gold stars.
It's just the warrant and commissioned officers who currently have the silver over gold distinction.

[marcpasquin]

Not always.
General Pershing wore four gold stars as a General of the Army, while other generals wore four stars.
Command master chief petty officers have two silver stars above the arc and a silver star between the arc and the chevron, while the force master chief petty officers wear the same insignia, but with gold stars.
It's just the warrant and commissioned officers who currently have the silver over gold distinction.

naval enlisted insignias was indeed my justification but as an aside, I was under the impression that pershing's were never officialy adopted, is there some sort of chart that includes it ?

[SFMRAS]

Not always.
General Pershing wore four gold stars as a General of the Army, while other generals wore four stars.
Command master chief petty officers have two silver stars above the arc and a silver star between the arc and the chevron, while the force master chief petty officers wear the same insignia, but with gold stars.
It's just the warrant and commissioned officers who currently have the silver over gold distinction.

naval enlisted insignias was indeed my justification but as an aside, I was under the impression that pershing's were never officialy adopted, is there some sort of chart that includes it ?

This is the only thing I could find:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_o ... n_Pershing

[J.T. Broderick]

I was under the impression that pershing's were never officialy adopted, is there some sort of chart that includes it ?

No. That is apparently something some Wikipedia user came up with. There is no supporting documentation, and the most thorough biographies of Pershing all say that he wore the same rank insignia as other generals. There is one painted portrait that shows gold stars, which I would attribute to artist error. There are a number of others that show silver stars. The "Specifications for the Uniform" (AR 600-35) Oct. 1921 states that the General of the Armies can prescribe his own coat collar insignia, but for shoulder rank insignia it lists only "General -- four silver stars".

Justin

[Lord Cybran]

Here's my proposal of enlisted rank insignia, based on the present USAF insignia but with some distinguishing features.
- The insignia consist mostly of chevrons stylized to resemble wings, superimposed with the previously proposed USSF logo.
- Ranks E-1 through E-4 include "Crewman" instead of "Astronaut", because "Astronaut" implies a person who travels aboard a spaceship - which will probably not always be the case for USSF members, as there will always be need for some ground crew, and "Crewman" fits well both spaceship crew and ground crew.
- Rockers added at the top of insignia of E-7 through E-9. The blue space in the middle contains a white diamond for "starship/starbase sergeants", a star for Command Chief Master Sergeants, and the US Great Seal plus two small stars for the Chief Master Sergeant of the Space Force.

As for warrant officers, the USAF doesn't have any of those, therefore it's most probable that the USSF won't have them either.

As for officers, the insignia would probably be the same as USAF's or US Army's, but with a different background color. The most popular uniform color in sci-fi for space forces is gray, but I'm not sure whether gray is a good color for US uniforms, though I think it would be good to adopt it to distinguish from USAF uniforms. What do you think?

[Dorward_Bis]

Looks interesting) But again, taking into consideration the so-called, ergonomic aspect: try to limit these insignias with three wings and three arcs as a maximum, and with repeating combination of wings-arcs with an empty field, diamond and a star. Therefore, the system would look as follows:
E-1 - 1 wing
E-2 - 1 wing + 1 arc
E-3 - 2 wings
E-4 - 2 wings + 1 arc
E-5 - 3 wings
E-6 - 3 wings + 1 arc
E-7(1) - 3 wings + 2 arcs
E-7(2) - 3 wings + 2 arc + Diamond
E-8(1) - 3 wings + 3 arcs
E-8(2) - 3 wings + 3 arcs + Diamond
E-9(1) - 3 wings + 3 arcs + Star
E-9(2) - 3 wings + 3 arcs + Coat-of-Arms

Of course, this is more an Army-style than a USAF-style, but such system allows you to know the rank of a person without "calculating" the number of wings (I've mentioned already that the human's eye is capable to tell apart three same shapes glued together or four same shapes separated immediately, the more number shoud take some time to "calculate").
But, again, all this is just my opinion, no more)

[Medic_in_Uniform]

Actually, I rather like Marc's original designs...

[Lord Cybran]

Yep, I liked Marc's designs at first too, but then I noticed it's a bit hard to distinguish "Senior Astronaut", "Staff Sergeant" and "Technical Sergeant", especially from a distance.

Here is a chart for USSF officer ranks (which are actually the USAF officer ranks but on gray shoulder boards and the five-star rank entitled "General of the Space Force").

[Medic_in_Uniform]

Given the nature of the role, I didn't think there would be much need to worry about identifying grades at a distance.

If one was being pedantic, one might suggest that the General of the Space Force should probably have the Arms of the USA above the five stars, as do the formal versions of the insignia for the equivalent grades in the US Army and the US Air Force.

[venqax]

As far as I know, the General of the Air Force insignia has always been simply the circle (pentagon) of five small stars. It has never included the US coat of arms as the General of the Army insignia did.

[venqax]

I was under the impression that pershing's were never officialy adopted, is there some sort of chart that includes it ?

No. That is apparently something some Wikipedia user came up with. There is no supporting documentation, and the most thorough biographies of Pershing all say that he wore the same rank insignia as other generals. There is one painted portrait that shows gold stars, which I would attribute to artist error. There are a number of others that show silver stars. The "Specifications for the Uniform" (AR 600-35) Oct. 1921 states that the General of the Armies can prescribe his own coat collar insignia, but for shoulder rank insignia it lists only "General -- four silver stars".

Justin

I agree. In fact, I have submitted an inquiry to the US Army's history center asking for clarification regarding that very things. So far as I can tell, the "gold stars" are the creation of the famous painting and no record exists of Pershing actually wearing or adopting gold stars or wearing anything other than the standard 4 standard silver stars of a general. I think this is a "factoid" that keeps getting repeated without any substantiation. However, one site I found (can't find it now) did claim that the 4 gold stars were officially recognized as Pershing's insignia retroactively sometime in the 1950s. Have not corroboration of that, though, just one claim. No response yet from the Army's authorities.

[Lord Cybran]

Okay, I returned to Wikipedia today and I found out that, at least there, the General of the Air Force shoulder board has the US seal above the five stars, so I added it to the drawing I made before for USSF officer ranks. It became like this:

[Lord Cybran]

New version of my insignia for enlisted members of the USSF, now with some "void" space between the 3rd and 4th chevron for E-5 through E-9. I think this solves the problem of distinguishing E-4 and E-5 that we have in USAF insignia, and makes the insignia look a bit more futuristic.

[Lord Cybran]

Here is a subdued version of enlisted rank insignia for the USSF. The lighter green is the background color for the sleeve patches (I believe the USSF's main color for field dress will be green, as with other US armed forces).

[Lord Cybran]

Here's another version of the chart of USSF enlisted ranks, this time on gray background so you can have an idea on how the insignia will look on gray uniforms (again, I'm assuming that dress uniform for USSF will be gray because of sci-fi, but maybe a person who is not a fan of sci-fi or doesn't like gray assumes command of the USSF, who knows? )