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HYPOTHETICAL RANKS

US Space Force

Dealing primarily with contemporary and historical Earth nations. (Science-fiction oriented rank systems, such as Star Trek, Starship Troopers, etc.), should be placed in FICTIVE Rank Insignia.

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US Space Force

Unread postby marcpasquin » Thu Nov 19, 2015 5:23 am

US Space Force. Loosely based on modern day US Air Force.

US-Space-force-table-small.jpg
us space force


Full size:

http://marcpasquin.deviantart.com/art/US-Space-force-table-big-572891155
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Re: US Space Force

Unread postby dcfowler » Fri Nov 20, 2015 6:03 am

The biggest problem that I see would be difficulty in distinguishing the senior NCO rank insignia. They would look the same from a distance.
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Re: US Space Force

Unread postby marcpasquin » Fri Nov 20, 2015 6:12 am

dcfowler wrote:The biggest problem that I see would be difficulty in distinguishing the senior NCO rank insignia. They would look the same from a distance.


to a greater level then the USAF ones ?
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Re: US Space Force

Unread postby Dorward_Bis » Fri Nov 20, 2015 1:26 pm

Hmmm.... These rank insignias look a bit non-ergonomic. Of course, this is just my opinion)
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Re: US Space Force

Unread postby marcpasquin » Fri Nov 20, 2015 1:39 pm

Dorward_Bis wrote:Hmmm.... These rank insignias look a bit non-ergonomic. Of course, this is just my opinion)


not sure what you mean. Is it that they seem uncomfortable to wear ?
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Re: US Space Force

Unread postby Dorward_Bis » Fri Nov 20, 2015 4:29 pm

Marc, I mean they are a bit uncomfortable to indetify the rank immediatuly, one should spend some time to calculate number of arcs etc - by the way, same as for modern USAF enlisted and NCOs rank insignias. But, I repeat once again - this is just my opinion:)
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Re: US Space Force

Unread postby marcpasquin » Fri Nov 20, 2015 11:45 pm

Dorward_Bis wrote: But, I repeat once again - this is just my opinion:)


I posted the image so I could get feedback so opinion welcome. I might think of something and revisit later on.
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Re: US Space Force

Unread postby Miklós Lovász » Mon Nov 23, 2015 6:06 am

viewtopic.php?f=125&t=5363

True, this was about an all-human space force, but it does have some distinctly US-based insignia, courtesy of oour own medic-in-Uniform.
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Re: US Space Force

Unread postby dcfowler » Mon Nov 23, 2015 7:16 am

to a greater level then the USAF ones ?


Yes. With each chevron or rocker, the USAF insignia gets bigger. These are locked within a common shape and size, so that sort of distinguishing characteristic would be lost on the viewer.
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Re: US Space Force

Unread postby marcpasquin » Mon Nov 23, 2015 9:35 am

dcfowler wrote:
to a greater level then the USAF ones ?


Yes. With each chevron or rocker, the USAF insignia gets bigger. These are locked within a common shape and size, so that sort of distinguishing characteristic would be lost on the viewer.


But the 4 topmost ranks (which is what I assumed you were referring to) are only distinguished by a small symbol in the "void" or around the central star with their size being identical so I'm not sure if the rank insignias aboce would indeed be that much harder to tell apart from a distance.
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Re: US Space Force

Unread postby Dorward_Bis » Mon Nov 23, 2015 11:24 am

Well, as I know, the human's eye is capable to tell apart three same shapes "glued together" or four same shapes "placed apart" immediatuly. The fourth shape in the first case and the fifth shape in the second case require a bit more time to identify the number of shapes (the eye has to calculate them).

Actually, imho again, among most acceptable rank insignia systems (for enlisted and NCOs particularly) are UK, USA (Army and Marines) and some of ex-Soviet Armies.
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Re: US Space Force

Unread postby dcfowler » Tue Nov 24, 2015 6:17 am

But the 4 topmost ranks (which is what I assumed you were referring to) are only distinguished by a small symbol in the "void" or around the central star with their size being identical so I'm not sure if the rank insignias aboce would indeed be that much harder to tell apart from a distance.


For the E-9s, there is a significant blank space between the stripes and the rockers. 1st Sgt adds a lozenge, Command CMSgt adds a star. CMSAF has very little blank space at all. I suppose a lozenge and a star might be hard to distinguish at a distance, but my experience is that otherwise, you can tell them apart pretty well from far away. These seem more scrunched together, and would be harder to tell apart.

When a USSF comes about, it will undoubtably come from the USAF, and I imagine the stripes will align closely with the Air Force, the way that Coast Guard insignia hews closely to the Navy's. Dave
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Re: US Space Force

Unread postby venqax » Thu Dec 17, 2015 10:04 pm

Not sure what some of the comments mean. The real USAF insignia are only distinguished by progressive numbers of chevrons. Same with the Army and Marines (arcs, or rockers). And the various E-9 types are, in fact, noted only by the symbols in the void between the chevrons and rockers. So what is different about these? One thing though: Since in the US system silver out-ranks gold, it doesn't really makes sense that the singular, highest ranking enlisted man would have gold instead of silver insignia. Just my opinion. Great artwork.
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Re: US Space Force

Unread postby SFMRAS » Fri Dec 18, 2015 1:02 pm

venqax wrote:Not sure what some of the comments mean. The real USAF insignia are only distinguished by progressive numbers of chevrons. Same with the Army and Marines (arcs, or rockers). And the various E-9 types are, in fact, noted only by the symbols in the void between the chevrons and rockers. So what is different about these? One thing though: Since in the US system silver out-ranks gold, it doesn't really makes sense that the singular, highest ranking enlisted man would have gold instead of silver insignia. Just my opinion. Great artwork.

Not always.
General Pershing wore four gold stars as a General of the Army, while other generals wore four stars.
Command master chief petty officers have two silver stars above the arc and a silver star between the arc and the chevron, while the force master chief petty officers wear the same insignia, but with gold stars.
It's just the warrant and commissioned officers who currently have the silver over gold distinction.
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Re: US Space Force

Unread postby marcpasquin » Sat Dec 19, 2015 1:49 pm

SFMRAS wrote:Not always.
General Pershing wore four gold stars as a General of the Army, while other generals wore four stars.
Command master chief petty officers have two silver stars above the arc and a silver star between the arc and the chevron, while the force master chief petty officers wear the same insignia, but with gold stars.
It's just the warrant and commissioned officers who currently have the silver over gold distinction.


naval enlisted insignias was indeed my justification but as an aside, I was under the impression that pershing's were never officialy adopted, is there some sort of chart that includes it ?
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Re: US Space Force

Unread postby SFMRAS » Sat Dec 19, 2015 3:50 pm

marcpasquin wrote:
SFMRAS wrote:Not always.
General Pershing wore four gold stars as a General of the Army, while other generals wore four stars.
Command master chief petty officers have two silver stars above the arc and a silver star between the arc and the chevron, while the force master chief petty officers wear the same insignia, but with gold stars.
It's just the warrant and commissioned officers who currently have the silver over gold distinction.


naval enlisted insignias was indeed my justification but as an aside, I was under the impression that pershing's were never officialy adopted, is there some sort of chart that includes it ?

This is the only thing I could find:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_o ... n_Pershing
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Re: US Space Force

Unread postby J.T. Broderick » Sat Dec 19, 2015 7:26 pm

marcpasquin wrote:I was under the impression that pershing's were never officialy adopted, is there some sort of chart that includes it ?


No. That is apparently something some Wikipedia user came up with. There is no supporting documentation, and the most thorough biographies of Pershing all say that he wore the same rank insignia as other generals. There is one painted portrait that shows gold stars, which I would attribute to artist error. There are a number of others that show silver stars. The "Specifications for the Uniform" (AR 600-35) Oct. 1921 states that the General of the Armies can prescribe his own coat collar insignia, but for shoulder rank insignia it lists only "General -- four silver stars".

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Re: US Space Force

Unread postby Lord Cybran » Wed Dec 23, 2015 8:12 pm

Here's my proposal of enlisted rank insignia, based on the present USAF insignia but with some distinguishing features.
- The insignia consist mostly of chevrons stylized to resemble wings, superimposed with the previously proposed USSF logo.
- Ranks E-1 through E-4 include "Crewman" instead of "Astronaut", because "Astronaut" implies a person who travels aboard a spaceship - which will probably not always be the case for USSF members, as there will always be need for some ground crew, and "Crewman" fits well both spaceship crew and ground crew.
- Rockers added at the top of insignia of E-7 through E-9. The blue space in the middle contains a white diamond for "starship/starbase sergeants", a star for Command Chief Master Sergeants, and the US Great Seal plus two small stars for the Chief Master Sergeant of the Space Force.

As for warrant officers, the USAF doesn't have any of those, therefore it's most probable that the USSF won't have them either.

As for officers, the insignia would probably be the same as USAF's or US Army's, but with a different background color. The most popular uniform color in sci-fi for space forces is gray, but I'm not sure whether gray is a good color for US uniforms, though I think it would be good to adopt it to distinguish from USAF uniforms. What do you think?
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USSF ranks.png
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Re: US Space Force

Unread postby Dorward_Bis » Thu Dec 24, 2015 7:45 am

Looks interesting) But again, taking into consideration the so-called, ergonomic aspect: try to limit these insignias with three wings and three arcs as a maximum, and with repeating combination of wings-arcs with an empty field, diamond and a star. Therefore, the system would look as follows:
E-1 - 1 wing
E-2 - 1 wing + 1 arc
E-3 - 2 wings
E-4 - 2 wings + 1 arc
E-5 - 3 wings
E-6 - 3 wings + 1 arc
E-7(1) - 3 wings + 2 arcs
E-7(2) - 3 wings + 2 arc + Diamond
E-8(1) - 3 wings + 3 arcs
E-8(2) - 3 wings + 3 arcs + Diamond
E-9(1) - 3 wings + 3 arcs + Star
E-9(2) - 3 wings + 3 arcs + Coat-of-Arms

Of course, this is more an Army-style than a USAF-style, but such system allows you to know the rank of a person without "calculating" the number of wings (I've mentioned already that the human's eye is capable to tell apart three same shapes glued together or four same shapes separated immediately, the more number shoud take some time to "calculate").
But, again, all this is just my opinion, no more)
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Re: US Space Force

Unread postby Medic_in_Uniform » Thu Dec 24, 2015 12:48 pm

Actually, I rather like Marc's original designs... smilies-02
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Re: US Space Force

Unread postby Lord Cybran » Mon Jan 04, 2016 8:15 pm

Yep, I liked Marc's designs at first too, but then I noticed it's a bit hard to distinguish "Senior Astronaut", "Staff Sergeant" and "Technical Sergeant", especially from a distance.

Here is a chart for USSF officer ranks (which are actually the USAF officer ranks but on gray shoulder boards and the five-star rank entitled "General of the Space Force"). smilies-22
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USSF officer ranks.png
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Re: US Space Force

Unread postby Medic_in_Uniform » Mon Jan 04, 2016 8:27 pm

Given the nature of the role, I didn't think there would be much need to worry about identifying grades at a distance.

If one was being pedantic, one might suggest that the General of the Space Force should probably have the Arms of the USA above the five stars, as do the formal versions of the insignia for the equivalent grades in the US Army and the US Air Force.


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Re: US Space Force

Unread postby venqax » Mon Jan 04, 2016 9:03 pm

As far as I know, the General of the Air Force insignia has always been simply the circle (pentagon) of five small stars. It has never included the US coat of arms as the General of the Army insignia did.
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Re: US Space Force

Unread postby venqax » Mon Jan 04, 2016 9:30 pm

J.T. Broderick wrote:
marcpasquin wrote:I was under the impression that pershing's were never officialy adopted, is there some sort of chart that includes it ?


No. That is apparently something some Wikipedia user came up with. There is no supporting documentation, and the most thorough biographies of Pershing all say that he wore the same rank insignia as other generals. There is one painted portrait that shows gold stars, which I would attribute to artist error. There are a number of others that show silver stars. The "Specifications for the Uniform" (AR 600-35) Oct. 1921 states that the General of the Armies can prescribe his own coat collar insignia, but for shoulder rank insignia it lists only "General -- four silver stars".

Justin


I agree. In fact, I have submitted an inquiry to the US Army's history center asking for clarification regarding that very things. So far as I can tell, the "gold stars" are the creation of the famous painting and no record exists of Pershing actually wearing or adopting gold stars or wearing anything other than the standard 4 standard silver stars of a general. I think this is a "factoid" that keeps getting repeated without any substantiation. However, one site I found (can't find it now) did claim that the 4 gold stars were officially recognized as Pershing's insignia retroactively sometime in the 1950s. Have not corroboration of that, though, just one claim. No response yet from the Army's authorities.
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US Space Corps

Unread postby dcfowler » Sat Jun 24, 2017 6:01 am

There is currently legislation advancing in Congress to establish the US Space Corps as a separate service under the Department of the Air Force by Summer 2019. While the effort is not currently supported by the Air Force, it seems to have some influential supporters in Congress, so it could end up on the president's desk this year.

Would imagine that they'd have to have uniforms that distinguish themselves somewhat from the USAF.
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Re: US Space Corps

Unread postby jrichardn2 » Sat Jun 24, 2017 9:50 pm

Here's what the proposed legislation says the U.S. Space Corps's job would be:

Except as otherwise specifically prescribed by law, the Space Corps shall be organized in such manner, and the members of the Space Corps shall perform, such duties and have such titles, as the Secretary [of the Air Force] may prescribe. Such duties shall include—
(1) protecting the interests of the United States in space;
(2) deterring aggression in, from, and through space;
(3) providing combat-ready space forces that enable the commanders of the combatant command to fight and win wars;
(4) organizing, training, and equipping space forces; and
(5) conducting space operations of the Space Corps under the command of the Commander of the United States Space Command.

For those of you that remember that the U.S. Space Command was disestablished 15 years ago, the proposed legislation also calls for the command to be stood up again, tho' still subordinate to the Strategic Command.

As to whether the United States needs another Armed Service I'll leave to Americans to decide; but there's a case to be made that even the Air Force's existence is a mistake; see Robert Farley's "Grounded: The Case for Abolishing the United States Air Force". (The book is interesting; its logic applies to other countries' air forces.)

Anyway, to the specific question - just like U.S. Air Force uniforms, rank badges, etc. started as Army uniforms etc. but in blue, the Space Corps should be Air Force uniforms but in black with white trim? Same ranks as the Air Force. Tho' what would the E-1 to E-4 (OR1-OR4) ranks be called? In the Air Force they're Airman Basic through Senior Airman. In the Space Corps would they be Spaceman? I don't think so.
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Re: US Space Corps

Unread postby marcpasquin » Sat Jun 24, 2017 11:33 pm

jrichardn2 wrote:Tho' what would the E-1 to E-4 (OR1-OR4) ranks be called? In the Air Force they're Airman Basic through Senior Airman. In the Space Corps would they be Spaceman? I don't think so.


Astronier ? Corpsman ?
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Re: US Space Corps

Unread postby SFMRAS » Sat Jun 24, 2017 11:59 pm

marcpasquin wrote:
jrichardn2 wrote:Tho' what would the E-1 to E-4 (OR1-OR4) ranks be called? In the Air Force they're Airman Basic through Senior Airman. In the Space Corps would they be Spaceman? I don't think so.


Astronier ? Corpsman ?

My first thought was Space Corpsman, mainly to differentiate from the USN rating. I was also thinking that the red and yellow experimental airmen chevrons would be a good alternative to the blue and white ones.
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Re: US Space Corps

Unread postby sketor7558 » Sun Jun 25, 2017 5:09 pm

What they need is a separate Cyber Corps, not a Space Corps...
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Re: US Space Corps

Unread postby dcfowler » Sun Jun 25, 2017 7:22 pm

The Cyber Corps uniform would be death metal tshirts and cutoff shorts.
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Re: US Space Corps

Unread postby marcpasquin » Sun Jun 25, 2017 11:05 pm

dcfowler wrote:The Cyber Corps uniform would be death metal tshirts and cutoff shorts.


better yet, CYBERMEN SUITS !

Image
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Re: US Space Corps

Unread postby dcfowler » Thu Jun 29, 2017 6:50 pm

"Cyber service: Rep. Marc Veasey, a Democrat, proposed creating a new Cyber Service separate from the military’s existing Cyber Command, but the committee soundly defeated the idea in a 13-48 vote."

The Space Corps proposal however, did survive, and is advancing.
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Re: US Space Corps

Unread postby jrichardn2 » Thu Jun 29, 2017 7:43 pm

A few thoughts engendered by this fun thread:

1. Would the Space Corps have working uniforms in faux camouflage, like the U.S. Navy? "Blackberries"? ;-)

2. The Cyber Service is a little more intriguing than the Space Corps, because it isn't clear to me which of the existing services it would be spawned from.

a. If it was a brand-new service would it have, e.g., purple uniforms? ;-)

b. I note that the PHS Commissioned Corps doesn't clearly derive from any of the Armed Services, but wears Navy uniforms; so perhaps the Cyber Service would look at a gance like the PHS, i.e., Navy but with a different staff corps device. (I note that current Commander Cyber Command is a U.S.N. admiral.)

3. Those of us who remain au courant with Doctor Who will know that the genesis of the Cybermen is the McGuffin of the current serial.
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Re: US Space Corps

Unread postby dcfowler » Thu Jun 29, 2017 10:04 pm

1. Would the Space Corps have working uniforms in faux camouflage, like the U.S. Navy? "Blackberries"? ;-)

I would note that the blue camouflage has been axed, and is being phased out.

2. The Cyber Service is a little more intriguing than the Space Corps, because it isn't clear to me which of the existing services it would be spawned from.

Unclear if all of the services would chip in, or if it would also come out of the Air Force's hide. In any case, tabled until some future date.

b. I note that the PHS Commissioned Corps doesn't clearly derive from any of the Armed Services, but wears Navy uniforms; so perhaps the Cyber Service would look at a gance like the PHS, i.e., Navy but with a different staff corps device. (I note that current Commander Cyber Command is a U.S.N. admiral.)

While it would make sense to me if we get to an interplanetary Space Navy point to use naval conventions and uniforms, I doubt that this would be the case for a service within the DAF, be it space or cyber. But...we'll see.

The Russians have a space force that uses military uniforms and ranks, but I don't believe there is another template for a cyber service.
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Re: US Space Corps

Unread postby gghbisa » Thu Jun 29, 2017 10:31 pm

The Cyber Corps already exists as a branch of the army.

Its insignia is shown here:

http://www.tioh.hqda.pentagon.mil/Catal ... &ps=24&p=0
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Re: US Space Corps

Unread postby dcfowler » Fri Jun 30, 2017 8:14 am

No, the proposal was for an independent branch of service called the Cyber Service. Each of the armed services have cyber-tasked personnel, including the Army's Cyber Corps. Creation of a branch within an individual service would not require Congressional action.
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Re: US Space Corps

Unread postby Medic_in_Uniform » Fri Jun 30, 2017 10:24 am

Ah, all things come round and around...

Just leaving this here for your perusal (page 1 in particular is relevant to this thread):
http://forum.uniforminsignia.org/viewtopic.php?f=125&t=5363

The original concept was, as I noted at the time, a hypothetical civilian NASA-based "Uniformed Commissioned Corps" so it wouldn't quite fit the concept of a fully-formed military US Space Corps. It's a starting point though, and could easily be adapted to incorporate a colour change and slightly different badges as well as standard US officer ranks.

With that in mind, given the military nature of the proposed USSC currently being discussed, I would expect it is inevitable that the commissioned officer insignia (or at least the collar rank insignia) would be the same as for ALL other US armed services. It is open to debate whether they might also choose to add USN-style sleeve lace for one or more classes of their uniforms (although not necessarily in gold). The NCO insignia would be more open to interpretation, given that each branch of the US armed forces currently has it's own version of the enlisted grade markings.

From the wider point of view, I'm all for fun developments but, being objective, I just can't see that there's any real need for establishing a USSC at this time -- it seems a bit ahead of itself given the current state of any manned space programme (!).
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Re: US Space Corps

Unread postby dcfowler » Sat Jul 01, 2017 6:02 am

From the wider point of view, I'm all for fun developments but, being objective, I just can't see that there's any real need for establishing a USSC at this time -- it seems a bit ahead of itself given the current state of any manned space programme (!).


It's not necessarily about manned space. All of the armed services have space commands that design and launch satellites, control space assets, analyze space intelligence, do early space warning operations, and many other things that don't involve astronauts. It already involves thousands of personnel and billions of dollars.
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Re: US Space Corps

Unread postby Medic_in_Uniform » Sun Jul 02, 2017 10:04 pm

Yeah, I get that -- I just don't see that creating a separate service adds anything beyond what they're already doing. It just sounds like someone is empire-building.

A central co-ordinating bureau with assigned staff from the all branches, rather than each branch re-inventing the wheel (or competing, heaven forfend... [!]) would make sense but I just can't see the need for a dedicated fifth service (sixth, if you include the Coastguard).
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Re: US Space Corps

Unread postby dcfowler » Mon Jul 03, 2017 5:46 am

Well, sixth. The Coast Guard, by law, has been an armed service since 1790, far longer than the Air Force. So not counting it is not an option.

The Russian Space Forces (VKS) have existed as a separate branch since 1992 (Though reorganizations eliminated it between 1997-2001, and again from 2011-2015).
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Re: US Space Corps

Unread postby Medic_in_Uniform » Mon Jul 03, 2017 1:48 pm

Yep, that's why I mentioned it...

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Re: US Space Force

Unread postby Lord Cybran » Mon Dec 18, 2017 5:29 pm

Okay, I returned to Wikipedia today and I found out that, at least there, the General of the Air Force shoulder board has the US seal above the five stars, so I added it to the drawing I made before for USSF officer ranks. It became like this:
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USSF officer ranks.png
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Re: US Space Force

Unread postby Lord Cybran » Mon Dec 18, 2017 9:43 pm

New version of my insignia for enlisted members of the USSF, now with some "void" space between the 3rd and 4th chevron for E-5 through E-9. I think this solves the problem of distinguishing E-4 and E-5 that we have in USAF insignia, and makes the insignia look a bit more futuristic.
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USSF ranks.png
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Re: US Space Force

Unread postby Lord Cybran » Tue Dec 19, 2017 7:41 pm

Here is a subdued version of enlisted rank insignia for the USSF. The lighter green is the background color for the sleeve patches (I believe the USSF's main color for field dress will be green, as with other US armed forces).
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USSF ranks subdued.png
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Re: US Space Force

Unread postby Lord Cybran » Wed Dec 20, 2017 6:16 pm

Here's another version of the chart of USSF enlisted ranks, this time on gray background so you can have an idea on how the insignia will look on gray uniforms (again, I'm assuming that dress uniform for USSF will be gray because of sci-fi, but maybe a person who is not a fan of sci-fi or doesn't like gray assumes command of the USSF, who knows? smilies-01 )
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USSF ranks on gray.png
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Re: US Space Corps

Unread postby dcfowler » Tue Jun 19, 2018 4:58 am

Would require legislation from Congress to create it, but it appears that a US Space Force is on the way:

https://www.military.com/daily-news/201 ... s-say.html
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Re: US Space Corps

Unread postby Torg003 » Tue Jun 19, 2018 5:50 am

I saw that on the News today as well. Will be interesting to see what the uniforms and enlisted insignia will look like. I will assume that the USSF will use the USAF version of the Medal of Honor, but will have to have new decorations created, such as; Space Force Cross, Space Force Distinguished Service Medal, etc.
I wonder what color the uniform will be, but think it would be black as that is the color of their element (space). I could see either a dark grey or even midnight blue being used instead. It will probably be awhile before anyone in the public gets to see what the uniforms and ensignias will look like, so interesting to speculate in the meantime.
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Re: US Space Force

Unread postby Miklós Lovász » Tue Jun 19, 2018 7:48 pm

Well, check out this guy

https://twitter.com/SpaceCorpsUS
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Re: US Space Force

Unread postby Lord Cybran » Wed Jun 20, 2018 3:29 am

Wow... someone not well informed could take that for real...
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Re: US Space Force

Unread postby SFMRAS » Wed Jun 20, 2018 6:20 am

Miklós Lovász wrote:Well, check out this guy

https://twitter.com/SpaceCorpsUS

Lord Cybran wrote:Wow... someone not well informed could take that for real...

Account no longer active. What was on it?
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