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EUROPE - MILITARY BRANCH & RANK INSIGNIA

Royal Navy observations

Army, Air Force, Navy, Marines

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Royal Navy observations

Unread postby J.T. Broderick » Sun Jan 01, 2017 7:51 pm

A couple of things I found interesting, and wondered if anyone had any ideas.

First is a 1971 Wikipedia photo of Rear Admiral David Scott RN when he was serving in Washington DC. He is wearing a khaki (US khaki, anyway) coat which appears to have RN shoulder board fitted over existing shoulder loops.

radm_david_scott.jpg


What is interesting are the metal collar insignia.

david_scott_insignia.jpg
david_scott_insignia.jpg (10.54 KiB) Viewed 3908 times


They appear to be something like this:

rn_metal_collar.png
rn_metal_collar.png (5.38 KiB) Viewed 3908 times


Reading the 1966 RN Dress regulations on the terrific site Royal Marines Badges and Insignia Reference, "Gilt metal collar badges representing in miniature the distinction marks of rank and branch may be worn, optionally, on the khaki shirt by officers appointed for duty which necessitates their wearing khaki uniform in the presence of United States officers."

Does anyone know of any photos with these being worn, or of the devices themselves?
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Re: Royal Navy observations

Unread postby J.T. Broderick » Sun Jan 01, 2017 7:54 pm

Second is a 2014 photo of First Sea Lord Zambellas on a trip to the US. He is wearing a white tunic, no longer a standard item in the RN, with "working" shoulder boards. The commodore accompanying him has the "dress" boards. This looks odd, any ideas?

Thanks and Happy New Year to all!

Justin

1sl_straps.jpg
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Re: Royal Navy observations

Unread postby SFMRAS » Mon Jan 02, 2017 3:47 am

J.T. Broderick wrote:A couple of things I found interesting, and wondered if anyone had any ideas.

First is a 1971 Wikipedia photo of Rear Admiral David Scott RN when he was serving in Washington DC. He is wearing a khaki (US khaki, anyway) coat which appears to have RN shoulder board fitted over existing shoulder loops.

radm_david_scott.jpg


What is interesting are the metal collar insignia.

david_scott_insignia.jpg


They appear to be something like this:

rn_metal_collar.png


Reading the 1966 RN Dress regulations on the terrific site Royal Marines Badges and Insignia Reference, "Gilt metal collar badges representing in miniature the distinction marks of rank and branch may be worn, optionally, on the khaki shirt by officers appointed for duty which necessitates their wearing khaki uniform in the presence of United States officers."

Does anyone know of any photos with these being worn, or of the devices themselves?

Thanks for the site.
As far as I knew, only Canada wore the miniature metal insignia.
As far as I know regarding UK commodores, they no longer have the broad stripe, just the former rear admiral boards. Could be wrong about that.
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Re: Royal Navy observations

Unread postby jrichardn2 » Mon Jan 02, 2017 3:25 pm

I can confirm that RCN officers wore little metal collar badges showing stripes and curl - the helicopter pilot at an event I went to as a pre-teen wore them.
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Re: Royal Navy observations

Unread postby Torg003 » Mon Jan 02, 2017 8:14 pm

jrichardn2 wrote:I can confirm that RCN officers wore little metal collar badges showing stripes and curl - the helicopter pilot at an event I went to as a pre-teen wore them.


I assume that you're talking about the pre-unification RCN, not the post 2010 RCN (when they brought back the executive curl).
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Re: Royal Navy observations

Unread postby Medic_in_Uniform » Wed Jan 04, 2017 3:38 am

J.T. Broderick wrote:Second is a 2014 photo of First Sea Lord Zambellas on a trip to the US. He is wearing a white tunic, no longer a standard item in the RN, with "working" shoulder boards.


The tunic remains an option for certain appointments (or, indeed, a requirement for certain occasions).

J.T. Broderick wrote:The commodore accompanying him has the "dress" boards. This looks odd, any ideas?


Someone didn't get the memo! smilies-15




Or someone forgot to pack 1SL's ceremonial boards... smilies-08

Given the nature of an event that has the Boss and his staff all in white tunics, one would have assumed that the bling boards would have been expected!
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Re: Royal Navy observations

Unread postby J.T. Broderick » Thu Jan 05, 2017 12:41 am

Medic_in_Uniform wrote:The tunic remains an option for certain appointments (or, indeed, a requirement for certain occasions).


And I just noticed, apparently the pockets have been eliminated.


Medic_in_Uniform wrote:Someone didn't get the memo! smilies-15

Or someone forgot to pack 1SL's ceremonial boards... smilies-08

Given the nature of an event that has the Boss and his staff all in white tunics, one would have assumed that the bling boards would have been expected!


I thought the same thing about forgetting to pack, but here is a photo from the same trip. The first one was 31 July 2014, this one 01 August 2014:

1sl_straps_02.jpg


Well, anyway, not a big deal but interesting! Thanks for the comments,

Justin
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Re: Royal Navy observations

Unread postby Medic_in_Uniform » Thu Jan 05, 2017 1:17 am

Curious.

Yes, I didn't spot that the plain breast pockets had been omitted from the ice cream jackets.

Maybe they were a new batch made specifically for this trip and the tailor forgot them?!

I still think the RN are acutely aware that the old Roger Moore-style short-sleeve white safari suit looks fine, erm, on safari, but doesn't really cut it at a formal event next to the USN dress white chokers -- hence the continued inclusion of the long-sleeve ice cream jackets in the regs!

What they actually say is:

Notes
2. White tunic may be worn by Officers of Flag rank and certain members of staff, Commodores, Captains, Commanders in command, certain members of Flag Officers' staffs, Executive Officers of major warships, Attaches, Advisors, British Naval Staff overseas and Officers in certain exchange appointments. Also by other Officers, Warrant Officers and Senior Ratings when required to conform with accepted international standards of dress on state or major ceremonial occasions as directed by the State Ceremonial Training Officer at HMS COLLINGWOOD.


smilies-07

As to the shoulder boards it doesn't really make much sense but perhaps they couldn't find them on day one or had a new set run-up overnight?!

Who knows...

smilies-15


Look at the difference too between the Commander's "court-mounted" medals and 1SL's "swing-mounted" medals; in fact, all of his decorations and insignia rather look like they were simply thrown at the front of his jacket with a blob of glue on them and have just stuck wherever they landed! At least the pockets gave them something to which they could align the bling! On that note, I've often wondered how our US cousins cope with the idea of an Admiral who has "only" four medals plus the weird chest and neck thingy (!)...?


Oh, and for SFMRAS, the RN Commodore rank still maintains the broad lace cuff ring with the separate loop above (in place of the curl on a standard lace ring) as the standard marking of rank (and the same is worn on working dress shoulder slides and hard shoulder boards). The authorisation to use the "single-star" ceremonial boards did not come at the same time as the increase in the number of stars on the ceremonial boards for Adm / V-Adm / R. Adm. If I recall correctly, there was a delay of several years before the *old* R. Adm one-star boards officially appeared in the regs for Commodores.
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Re: Royal Navy observations

Unread postby SFMRAS » Thu Jan 05, 2017 1:52 pm

Medic_in_Uniform wrote:
Oh, and for SFMRAS, the RN Commodore rank still maintains the broad lace cuff ring with the separate loop above (in place of the curl on a standard lace ring) as the standard marking of rank (and the same is worn on working dress shoulder slides and hard shoulder boards). The authorisation to use the "single-star" ceremonial boards did not come at the same time as the increase in the number of stars on the ceremonial boards for Adm / V-Adm / R. Adm. If I recall correctly, there was a delay of several years before the *old* R. Adm one-star boards officially appeared in the regs for Commodores.

I vaguely recalled something about the shoulder insignia going with sublieutenant-commodore insignia, followed by the two stars for RA, but I wasn't too sure if that was my mind playing tricks on me.
Depending on the day, my memory is excellent or, uh ... um, the thingy that isn't excellent.
smilies-05
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Re: Royal Navy observations

Unread postby J.T. Broderick » Sat Mar 10, 2018 8:26 pm

Regarding the RN/RCN officer shirt collar rank pins I asked about earlier, I found a few examples on the Royal Museums Greenwich website. They have enamel between the stripes, which makes sensee because of the branch distinction colors.

rn_rcn_collar_rank.png
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Re: Royal Navy observations

Unread postby J.T. Broderick » Sun Mar 11, 2018 9:45 pm

And here's a photo from 2012 aboard USS Churchill, with something similar worn on USN coveralls:

rn_lt_usn.jpg
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Re: Royal Navy observations

Unread postby SFMRAS » Thu May 24, 2018 4:38 am

J.T. Broderick wrote:And here's a photo from 2012 aboard USS Churchill, with something similar worn on USN coveralls:

rn_lt_usn.jpg

HMS Dreadnought, 1968. At the beginning, the diving officer(?) appears to wear the same insignia. At around 4:00 and 4:50 the officers in the wardroom and an officer in another part of the ship wear similar insignia, too. They're worn on the white shirt, but I don't see it worn on the shirt when the jacket is worn.
I recall no mention in the various sources i have and have read about RCN type collar insignia being used.
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Re: Royal Navy observations

Unread postby SFMRAS » Thu May 24, 2018 7:25 am

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Re: Royal Navy observations

Unread postby J.T. Broderick » Sat May 26, 2018 5:44 pm

That was great, thanks. I have never seen those worn on the white shirt like that. I liked seeing the CPO coxswain badge above the front pocket, too.

Justin
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Re: Royal Navy observations

Unread postby SFMRAS » Sat May 26, 2018 8:54 pm

J.T. Broderick wrote:That was great, thanks. I have never seen those worn on the white shirt like that. I liked seeing the CPO coxswain badge above the front pocket, too.

Justin

Iqn occasion, YouTube can be a treasure trove. I'm now hunting in my free time to find other UK (and other countries') insignia on YT.
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