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marcpasquin wrote:I think you might need to decided whether you are basically doing an integral roman empire with modern guns or a roman empire that has evolved over the past 2 millenias.
If the former, getting equivalency will be a bit hard. Centurions rose from the troops to have responsabilities and an autonomy of command far beyond what non commision officers would have OTL. It would roughly be like haveing all ranks up to major or so being enlisted ranks and having colonel and above be political apointee.
what's worse is that in this HQ staff, the tribunes were there mostly to observe and only in a few cases command anyone with only the legates actually taking decisions. So 2 ways to see this in term of insignias is that either all ranks up tribunes are treated as a single progression stream (like the chevron and rocker system of US army but extended) or else treat the centurion and those below as having 2 different sets of rank insignias.
As to what they might look like, centurion could wear a fan like design that's a stylized representation of his ceremonial uniform crest with below a number of pips depending on which cohort he comands (and thus his level of seniority). It could also be something incorporating a vine stick which was historically a symbol of his authority.
SFMRAS wrote:
Perhaps the vine staff could function as the number of the cohort? A vine staff for the 1st, two in a 'V' for the 5th, a pair crossed for the 10th, etc.
Helios88 wrote:
P.S. After only 4 years I gained my first star on the first shoulder board! I'm very proud. :D
Miklós Lovász wrote:Helios88 wrote:
P.S. After only 4 years I gained my first star on the first shoulder board! I'm very proud. :D
Complimenti, signore sottotenente:)
Medic_in_Uniform wrote:This is a great one....!
I could have SO much fun with this!!
Medic_in_Uniform wrote:Oh, believe me, when I'm not on-call for a big ICU, I will totally have a go at this...!!
Medic_in_Uniform wrote:Oh, believe me, when I'm not on-call for a big ICU, I will totally have a go at this...!!
Medic_in_Uniform wrote:The all-conquering armies of mighty Rome wearing short leather skirts with studs and feathers on their heads. Could be an interesting look...
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2. The Roman rank structure (and the sub-groups within it) was closely linked to, and highly dependent upon, the Roman social structure and the classes within that.
3. I'm sure we've touched on this before in discussions here but there's an interesting debate to be had regarding the relative equivalencies between Roman and contemporary military ranks. I think we all agree that regarding the various Centurion grades as "NCOs" is over-simplistic and relies too heavily on the distinctions of social class. What is more interesting is how we think they might equate to company and field grade ranks, potentially right up to something approaching the equivalent of a full Colonel staff officer for the Praefectus castrorum.
This fits my view perfectly. Transposed in a ground context, gentlemen should be a sort of "decorations", viable for further study and training, in order to fill the higher posts; maybe senior officers tasked with making strategic decisions.4. While these were undoubtedly professional officers, there are aspects to the structure that make me think more of the Warrant Officers of the Royal Navy in the Eighteenth and Nineteenth Centuries. Now, true scholars of both the Royal Navy and of classical Rome and the Roman military of antiquity may well tell me I'm well wide of the mark here but the parallel is that the ship's standing officers, appointed by Warrant, not Commission, were the originally the professionals in their fields (sailing master, carpenter, sailmaker and so on) and stayed with the ship while the "gentleman" commissioned officers came and went. It's a bit of a simplification in order to make a point but the evolution of this was, eventually, that the gentleman officers of the Royal Navy became more and more professional in their training and warrant officers began to be appointed to commissioned ranks, and by the mid-Twentieth Century the role (in its original form) had disappeared as it was merged into the commissioned ranks, admittedly as "second class citizens" initially (with limited rank progression) but eventually they simply became part of the greater whole and promotion from the Rates to commission is an accepted pathway. Subsequently the warrant rank is re-created along Army lines as a true "Senior NCO" in a way that the original Warrant Officers weren't.
Here we go into pure speculation. Therefore I can only describe what I imagined for this Roman Empire, obviously explaining why.Would the uniforms look like contemporary military clothing or could they be completely different? What about formal dress, service dress, working dress (or their broad equivalents)...?
It is an interesting but hard-to-answer-to question. Therefore I pass the answer, at least for now.Where would insignia appear?
On the chest? On the helmet or soft barracks cover? On the sleeve, cuff or shoulder...?
In this, perhaps paradoxically, I have more ideas than for the previous point. Romans were a pragmatic culture, and my hypotesis is that the formal insignia would be an embellished version of the combat dress ones. But these are only my two cent. :)Would the insignia be the same (or embellished versions of the same) across all types of uniform or would, say, formal dress be completely different to working dress?
Medic_in_Uniform wrote:Yeah, that seems reasonable -- and if you think of the way that successive European conflicts like the Wars of Austrian Succession and the Napoleonic Wars played out, that's pretty much what happened.
As a side question, your mentioning of the Mediterranean made me wonder:
how would a Roman navy fit into this? Just another branch of a generic Roman military, or evolution into an entirely separate service from the army...?
RaduLaur66 wrote:If I may, I would not mix Principate era (1st to 3rd century era ranks) with those from the later period (4th-6th). If we stick to the late era, then there is no place for:
1. Immunis. This was a ranks of the 1st and 2nd century era. He is no longer attested in the later era.
As a tendential rule, I would refrain to use greek-sounding rank titles. After all, it shuld be the ROMAN Empire, not the Justinian-era Byzantine Empire somewhat romanized.RaduLaur66 wrote:2. Decanus immediately after semissalis. The rank corresponding to corporal in the late era is clearly attested: CIRCITOR. He could fill the role of a team leader, that is five soldiers. The leader of 4 soldiers (tetrarhes) or 5 men (pentarhes) mentioned by Mauricius' Strategikon (late 6th century military manual) are the equivalent of the circitor. The Strategikon also attests the laeder of 10 men (dekarhes) who is the BIARCHUS or DECANUS. This would be the squad leader (sergeant)
No question, I see your point.RaduLaur66 wrote:3. Optio. In the late roman era, there was the PROTECTOR. However, in order to have the rank of second lieutenant, I would name the officer cadet by the title of CANDIDATUS; so, the PROTECTOR would be the first rank commissioned officer rank.
4. Centurio. It also belongs to the earlier era, so there is no place for it here. Instead of it, CENTENARIUS (First Lieutenant)
5. Praefectus alae. It’s also anachronistic. We’ll stick to PRIMICERIUS. He would be a lieutenant colonel and deputy commander of a unit. Since the ducenarius commands a company/Squadron/Battery and at the next level (battalion or regiment) there is a tribunus, there’s nothing in between, so the primicerius/lieutenant colonel cannot play a command role, but only that of a second in command.
I consciously departed from liguistic correctness (Vexillifer was a veteran trooper) favouring instead an hypotetical deviation: Vexillation was named this way because they were granted a Vexillum, therefore I decided that the commander of the Vexillatio was named after the Vexillum.RaduLaur66 wrote:6. Vexillifer. It’s not correct, since he designated a non-commissioned rank from the earlier period. The vexillifer was a vexillum carrier. The vexillum was the little cloth flag of a cavalry detachment (turma). Vexillatio is a very different thing. As I’ve said earlier, it’s a large combined arms operational task force. The correct title could be DRUNGARIUS (also attested for some cavalry units in the Strategikon), or, more ‘traditional’, PRAEFECTUS LEGIONIS. In the later era of the Roman Empire, the legion was downsized dramatically. Historians appreciate its strength to no more than 1.200 soldiers. It better fits the brigade rather than a division for the late era. In 2018, a legion of late era model might have around 2000-4000 soldiers.
We miss the specialist. Immunis is too old fashioned. I wonder if there is any title fit.There it is my latest proposal for the roman hierarchy:
1.Enlisted
-Tiro (recruit)
-Miles/Eques ( private - infantryman/cavalryman)
-Semissalis (lance-corporal)
I would avoid Tetrarhes&Pentarhes, Biarchus, Signophorus (instead Signifer?) and Bandophorus. Just because they are greek sounding. Damnit, I am a Roman! :D2.NCOs
-Circitor/Tetrarhes&Pentarhes (corporal): team leader
-Biarchus/Decanus (Sergeant): Squad Leader
-Signophorus (Staff/Colour Sergeant): company/squadron/battery standard bearer and company/squadron/battery sergeant major
-Draconarius/Bandophorus (Sergeant Major): regimental/battalion standard bearer and battalion/regimental sergeant major
Okay. Ordinarius instead of Ducenarius?3.Company Officers
-Candidatus (Officer Cadet) starting position for officers
-Protector (Second Lieutenant): commander of a manipulus (infantry platoon) or vexillum (cavalry troop)
- Centenarius (First Lieutenant): Company/Squadron/Battery Second in command (2iC)
- Ducenarius (Captain): infantry Company or artillery battery commanders (centuria); cavalry squadron (turma) commander
Okay. I'll never understand why British call "Regiment" a cavalry Battalion-sized unit :D4. Regimental Officers
-Adiutor (infantry/artillery Major) – Battalion Adjutant
-Senator (cavalry Major) – Regimental Adjutant
-Primicerius (Lieutenant Colonel)- Battalion/Regiment 2iC
-Tribunus (Colonel)- Commander of a cohors, bandon, auxilia, numerus (infantry and artillery Battalion)/Commander of an Ala (cavalry regiment)
Moira? Are these "Moira" edibles? :P5. General Officers
-Praefectus Legionis (Brigadier General): Commander of a Legio/Moira (brigade)
-Dux (Major General): Commander of a Meros (Division)
-Comes rei militaris (Lieutenant General): Commander of a Comitatus (Amy Corps) (GREAT IDEA, HELIOS88)
-Magister militum (General): Commander of an Exercitus (Field Army)
-Magister militum praesentalis/in praesenti (General field marshal): Chief of the Imperial General Staff
Thank you for the reference. :)I’ve took as a model the British army sytem were
Infantry platoon = cavalry troop
Infantry Company = Cavalry Squadron
Infantry Battalion = Cavalry Regiment
RaduLaur66 wrote:Wow, I like the orbiculi and the color of the shoulder straps! As for the stripe, I would not use only yellow, but different colors, upon the arms branch. Let's say red for infantry, yellow for armored, black for engineers, purple for army aviation, light blue for special forces and so on.
I agree, after all the legion would be the basic unit.Great work you did! You know, I've thought a little more about the praefectus legionis shoulder board, I would not make him a general rank, but rather a senior field officer, something like the british Brigadier or chinese senior colonel. That would be with 2 lengthwise stripes and 4 orbiculi in a line between the stripes.
Then the dux (major general), the comes rei militaris (lieutenant general) and magister militum (general) would have respectfully, 1, 2 and 3 eagles on the shoulder boards and the magister militum praesentalis (field marshal) 3 eagles along 2 crossed battons. What do you think about that?
I personally abhor scrambled eggs on the visor cap. :)RaduLaur66 wrote:Again, great job you did. I presume we can proceed further.
Now, some suggestions regarding the uniforms. It's very tempting, but I would not use rows of oak leaves for the service cap's visor.
I've seen this in many fantasy rank pictures and, IMHO, they make the look of the uniform too cumbersome (chinstraps, cap badges and all the rest made of gold bullion) are too "heavy".
In the end, it looks like an operatic uniform and too richly decorated, like the ones of the african dictators.
I suggest following the Italian model instead, with some modifications.As for the caps I propose a plain visor for al the ranks, the cloth of the cap band would be of branch of service piping (red for generals). The cap badge should represent an imperial eagle within a laurel wreath (gold for all the officers, including the generals, silver for NCOs, a simple silver eagle for the enlisted).
Just for figuring it out: is this patch inspired to the German or to the British patch?Generals would have a red collar patch with gold bullion laurel leaves crown embroidered on it. They would sport on their trousers wide double row of red stripes separated by a thin red stripe.
Historically, Legional identities were strong. What about devising a Legional collar patch? On the collar patch it would be pinned the metal pin displaying the branch of service.For the other officers and NCOs, a small collar patch of branch of service piping with metal branch insignia on it. The enlisted would wear a smaller collar patch, but similar in design to the officers' and NCOs ones.
Let's use Italian shoes for evereyone's sake. :P Jokes aside, I agree, I'd only add a button to the button row.As for the service coat, a classical one: a single-breasted, 4 buttons in a row, with two chest pockets with pleated flaps and small button down flaps. Then two lower pockets with button down flaps. Black Oxford shoes.
What about a Sam Browne belt?I should add a belt of the same fabric as the coat with a simple metal buckle to make it look more sharp.
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