It is currently Wed Apr 24, 2019 5:25 pm
Change font size

AMERICA - MILITARY BRANCH & RANK INSIGNIA

US Space Force

Army, Air Force, Navy, Marines

Moderators: Miklós Lovász, kaldi, Chuck Anderson, Pavel Močoch, Erskine Calderon, Lukasz Gaszewski, ChrisWI, Zdzislaw Rudzki

US Space Force

Unread postby dcfowler » Wed Feb 20, 2019 4:53 am

In the first, very vague hint of rank structure for the new US Space Force (Still to be approved by Congress), Space Policy Directive-4 was signed today, and included this passage:

"(b) The legislative proposal shall establish a Chief of Staff of the Space Force, who will be a senior military officer in the grade of General or Admiral, and who shall serve as a member of the Joint Chiefs of Staff."
dcfowler
COMMUNICANT
COMMUNICANT
 
Posts: 144
Joined: Mon Nov 27, 2006 5:06 am
Location: Eugene, OR

Re: US Space Force

Unread postby Medic_in_Uniform » Tue Feb 26, 2019 2:29 pm

Interesting from the point of view of our niche (and somewhat nerdy) fascination with the minutiae of these things. So far they seem to be hedging their bets / keeping their options open...!


From a real-world point of view, however, my very subjective personal opinion is that this remains an un-needed political vanity project and a distraction which will waste a lot of time, effort and money -- all of which could arguably be better expended elsewhere.

The whole thing strikes me as the most glib marketing spin from the most arch of used-car-lot salesmen, diverting attention with grandiose plans to create a shiny new replacement for something that doesn't actually need to be replaced.

I fully accept that there are other equally valid opinions and that, as the saying goes, your mileage may vary...!

smilies-15
Medic_in_Uniform
ADMINISTRATOR
ADMINISTRATOR
 
Posts: 481
Joined: Sun Jan 07, 2007 7:33 pm

Re: US Space Force

Unread postby dcfowler » Wed Feb 27, 2019 4:28 am

I have no love for the current Occupant, but putting that aside, will note that Russia has had a space force since 1992, and China has had a combined space/cyber force since 2016.
dcfowler
COMMUNICANT
COMMUNICANT
 
Posts: 144
Joined: Mon Nov 27, 2006 5:06 am
Location: Eugene, OR

Re: US Space Force

Unread postby marcpasquin » Wed Feb 27, 2019 8:08 am

dcfowler wrote:I have no love for the current Occupant, but putting that aside, will note that Russia has had a space force since 1992, and China has had a combined space/cyber force since 2016.


So you're saying the president might be drawing inspiration from the russian on how to organise the military ? I'm sure there's nothing worrying there..... at least until they unveil the new uniforms for agents of the All-American Department of State Security.....
Marc Pasquin
marcpasquin
ADMINISTRATOR
ADMINISTRATOR
 
Posts: 374
Joined: Wed May 26, 2004 9:29 pm
Location: australia, formely quebec

Re: US Space Force

Unread postby dcfowler » Thu Feb 28, 2019 6:01 am

marcpasquin wrote:
dcfowler wrote:I have no love for the current Occupant, but putting that aside, will note that Russia has had a space force since 1992, and China has had a combined space/cyber force since 2016.


So you're saying the president might be drawing inspiration from the russian on how to organise the military ? I'm sure there's nothing worrying there..... at least until they unveil the new uniforms for agents of the All-American Department of State Security.....


Be snarky if you wish, but the land and naval environments have had their own services in most nations since the dawn on civilization. The air environment saw air forces coming into being between World Wars I and II. The space environment has been gradually maturing as a military domain since the 1950s, and can probably sustain a small service now; Plus, we now have the new cyber/electromagnetic warfare domain that is growing exponentially, and will undoubtably require a new service before too long. (Germany established one in 2015).
dcfowler
COMMUNICANT
COMMUNICANT
 
Posts: 144
Joined: Mon Nov 27, 2006 5:06 am
Location: Eugene, OR

Re: US Space Force

Unread postby marcpasquin » Thu Feb 28, 2019 7:47 am

dcfowler wrote:
marcpasquin wrote:
dcfowler wrote:I have no love for the current Occupant, but putting that aside, will note that Russia has had a space force since 1992, and China has had a combined space/cyber force since 2016.


So you're saying the president might be drawing inspiration from the russian on how to organise the military ? I'm sure there's nothing worrying there..... at least until they unveil the new uniforms for agents of the All-American Department of State Security.....


Be snarky if you wish, but the land and naval environments have had their own services in most nations since the dawn on civilization. The air environment saw air forces coming into being between World Wars I and II. The space environment has been gradually maturing as a military domain since the 1950s, and can probably sustain a small service now; Plus, we now have the new cyber/electromagnetic warfare domain that is growing exponentially, and will undoubtably require a new service before too long. (Germany established one in 2015).


I wasn't attacking the creation of new branches when new needs arise. I was joking about the fact that, considering the nature of the accusations faced by Trump, justifying one of his executive order by saying "russia's doing it" may take on added meaning even if unintended.
Marc Pasquin
marcpasquin
ADMINISTRATOR
ADMINISTRATOR
 
Posts: 374
Joined: Wed May 26, 2004 9:29 pm
Location: australia, formely quebec

Re: US Space Force

Unread postby dcfowler » Fri Mar 01, 2019 9:33 pm

The proposed legislation has refined things a bit.

The chief of staff and vice chief of staff will both hold the rank of general.

The senior enlisted member will be the Chief Master Sergeant of The Space Force.

https://media.defense.gov/2019/Mar/01/2 ... OPOSAL.PDF
dcfowler
COMMUNICANT
COMMUNICANT
 
Posts: 144
Joined: Mon Nov 27, 2006 5:06 am
Location: Eugene, OR

Re: US Space Force

Unread postby Medic_in_Uniform » Mon Mar 04, 2019 3:03 am

Also interesting is the positioning of the proposed new Space Force within the Department of the Air Force, but separate from the Air Force itself, with a specified Under-Secretary to oversee the new service.

Unless they chose to do something very funky, such as a variation on the (naval-pattern) McPeak-style sleeve lace (which I somehow doubt...), it seems inevitable that the officer grade insignia will be the same as those already in use for the US Army and the US Air Force. It also seems likely that the enlisted grade insignia for the Space Force are likely to be derived from Air Force enlisted insignia. Assuming that this actually happens (which is by no means certain given the current composition of Congress), then I would guess that there is a good chance that initial uniforms and insignia will look a LOT like those of the USAF in the short- to medium-term, but may evolve later in to their own unique patterns and structures as the years go by — much as the Air Force insignia initially looked a lot like those of the USAAF from which it was derived. Specialty breast insignia will also likely follow USAF patterns, although it seems a safe bet that there will be some sort of generic badge for the service that will be derived from the current USAF Space Command emblems.

I’d be interested to see what they might do with service dress uniforms but my guess is that there is likely to be a fairly conservative and restrained approach, with something very close in style (if not identical to) the USAF-pattern of uniform, except with a change of the base colour to something like black or dark grey. Dark navy blue is also a definite possibility given that the Army, Navy and USMC all use this. For now, if I was a betting man, my money would be on black uniform and caps with light-grey shirts and black ties; black shoulder slides for shirts and sweaters.

Unless someone is very keen to go for a unique new look, I’d guess we will see the usual US Arms as the officer cap badge. It would also be interesting to see if they adopt the USAF-pattern clouds and lightning bolts for senior officer peak decoration (politely known as the farts-and-darts...) or if they chose to use some form of oak leaves like the army, the navy and the USMC. Each of the existing services has their own specific variations of bullion peak embroidery for senior officers, so there’s no reason why the USSF wouldn’t have something different again.

Given the likely Air Force heritage of the initial senior commanders of such a force, I can imagine that they would be more likely to favor adopting a space-specific variant of the farts-and-darts pattern, with two motifs on each side of the peak for Colonels and three on each side for general officers. What form those motifs may take is anyone’s guess! They could opt for either silver or gold as the main colour for cap badges and insignia but, again, the Air Force background would suggest silver is probably more likely. I also think that they will follow USAF traditions and that side caps are more likely to be used day-to-day than peaked service dress caps.

So that’s my guess (if it happens): USAF-style uniforms in black (or very dark grey...!) with light grey shirts and silver as the main colour for badges and officer cap embroidery and chin straps (if they don’t stick with plain black). I think they could do something a lot more interesting than that but I suspect that this is more likely what we’ll see.

I’m curious to see what you guys think.

smilies-15
Medic_in_Uniform
ADMINISTRATOR
ADMINISTRATOR
 
Posts: 481
Joined: Sun Jan 07, 2007 7:33 pm

Re: US Space Force

Unread postby dcfowler » Mon Mar 04, 2019 5:16 am

I agree with your observations. Air Force uniforms with distinguishing insignia at the outset, gradually transitioning to service-unique uniforms, insignia, and perhaps rank titles over five years or so.

I never thought a Department of the Space Force was viable at the outset, so this approach seems sensible. I would have been onboard with a combined space and cyber service. I suspect that taking this more conservative approach will get enough support in Congress to get it passed. After all, it will only have around 15,000 members to begin with, so significantly smaller than the Coast Guard.

(Incidentally, the Army "navy blue" uniform will soon be reserved for formal occasions, as the World War II-era pinks and greens will be returning to service.

I'd bet on the USSF uniforms being black.
dcfowler
COMMUNICANT
COMMUNICANT
 
Posts: 144
Joined: Mon Nov 27, 2006 5:06 am
Location: Eugene, OR

Re: US Space Force

Unread postby Medic_in_Uniform » Mon Mar 04, 2019 12:08 pm

I guess it's because its just seems to work better in my head, but the original concept of the United States Space Corps just sounds better to me than Space Force, which sounds a bit clunky. Maybe its just me...

I did read somewhere that, in due course, the intention, ultimately, would be to transition to a fully independent Department of the Space Force within the DoD.

The issue of uniforms and badges is rather secondary in the grand scheme of things but (a) it's what this forum is about and (b) I guess it will depend on just how much the new Chief of Staff thinks he needs to establish a specific "identity" for a nascent new service branch.

No matter what they do, there will inevitably be quite a lot of inter-service jokes about new uniforms, badges, starfleet without a starship, all that kind of thing. In fact, can you think of anything other than "Starfleet" catching on as the nickname for these guys by the other branches...? I suspect it is almost inevitable that there will be quite a lot of spoof posts with a variety of uniforms from the different eras of Star Trek once this gets up and running! Just look at all the comments when the USAF were trying out a variety of new designs for a service dress / formal uniform a few years ago...! If they do go with black or grey then I'm sure there will be plenty of pics using the Imperial forces from Star Wars too! If they are clever, they will anticipate this and get ahead of the game by playing on it themselves, rather than being all po-faced about it.

Edit:

Who am I kidding...
“Starship Troopers” is another prime candidate and comes with a ready-made list of memes for uniforms, insignia, recruiting posters, etc. Even Mel Brooks’ Star Wars parody Spaceballs has to be in the mix too...!! I’m sure everything as far back as the old Buster Crabbe black-and-white Flash Gordon and Buck Rogers serials will make an appearance at some point!!


On another note -- I'd completely forgotten about the official announcement on the pinks and greens (sorry, Army Greens -- they do know that no-one apart from senior leadership is ever gonna call them that, don't they...?). I guess it was always likely that some form of non-blue service / garrison dress was going to happen at some point and that the ASU would go back to being Dress Blues.
Medic_in_Uniform
ADMINISTRATOR
ADMINISTRATOR
 
Posts: 481
Joined: Sun Jan 07, 2007 7:33 pm

Re: US Space Force

Unread postby Medic_in_Uniform » Mon Mar 04, 2019 12:59 pm

I’m delving back into Forum history here, but how long do you think it will be before folks start finding this thread...

http://forum.uniforminsignia.org/viewtopic.php?f=125&t=5363

...and I wonder if we’ll see images “borrowed” from posts appearing on other sites? smilies-15


It happened a while back when the AF we’re looking a new uniforms so I can imagine that people doing Google searches will find that thread!
Medic_in_Uniform
ADMINISTRATOR
ADMINISTRATOR
 
Posts: 481
Joined: Sun Jan 07, 2007 7:33 pm

Re: US Space Force

Unread postby dcfowler » Mon Mar 04, 2019 7:08 pm

Another question is what personnel in the sub-sergeant ranks will be called.

"Spaceman" seems like a non-starter.

Ideas?
dcfowler
COMMUNICANT
COMMUNICANT
 
Posts: 144
Joined: Mon Nov 27, 2006 5:06 am
Location: Eugene, OR

Re: US Space Force

Unread postby Medic_in_Uniform » Tue Mar 05, 2019 1:41 am

No idea...!!

At a wild guess, if this happens, it sounds like they will be a pretty small service and will likely be poaching suitably qualified applicants from the junior NCO grades of the other branches for a while before they are ready to start running Space Boot Camp on their own...!

Given the nature of the remit and mission they are proposing, is there even a role for basic squaddies at this point...?

Anyone else have any ideas?
Medic_in_Uniform
ADMINISTRATOR
ADMINISTRATOR
 
Posts: 481
Joined: Sun Jan 07, 2007 7:33 pm

Re: US Space Force

Unread postby marcpasquin » Tue Mar 05, 2019 1:54 am

dcfowler wrote:Another question is what personnel in the sub-sergeant ranks will be called.

"Spaceman" seems like a non-starter.

Ideas?


Space Cadet
Astroman
Red Shirt
Rocketeer

On a more serious level, I think that they might have to go with something more generic along the line of "Trooper" or "Serviceman". If they did want to include the word "space" in some way, they probably would have to create a neologism like "Space Operator" to avoid any existing connotation.
Marc Pasquin
marcpasquin
ADMINISTRATOR
ADMINISTRATOR
 
Posts: 374
Joined: Wed May 26, 2004 9:29 pm
Location: australia, formely quebec

Re: US Space Force

Unread postby marcpasquin » Tue Mar 05, 2019 2:06 am

Medic_in_Uniform wrote:I’m delving back into Forum history here, but how long do you think it will be before folks start finding this thread...

http://forum.uniforminsignia.org/viewtopic.php?f=125&t=5363

...and I wonder if we’ll see images “borrowed” from posts appearing on other sites? smilies-15


It happened a while back when the AF we’re looking a new uniforms so I can imagine that people doing Google searches will find that thread!


Everytime Trump mentions the space force, I get a sudden bump on the number of view of my deviantart account because of the fictional space force ranks I posted some years ago.

https://www.deviantart.com/marcpasquin/art/US-Space-force-table-big-572891155

While that might sound like something good, it usually means that in the next day or 2, I or someone who know me will find the picture posted somewhere as the real deal and I'll have to try and have the info corrected.

for example:

https://www.reddit.com/r/army/comments/8s34jh/space_force_rank_structure_its_happening_next/

https://www.stardomspace.com/u-s-space-force-is-it-wise-or-even-legal/
Marc Pasquin
marcpasquin
ADMINISTRATOR
ADMINISTRATOR
 
Posts: 374
Joined: Wed May 26, 2004 9:29 pm
Location: australia, formely quebec

Re: US Space Force

Unread postby dcfowler » Tue Mar 05, 2019 5:34 am

At a wild guess, if this happens, it sounds like they will be a pretty small service and will likely be poaching suitably qualified applicants from the junior NCO grades of the other branches for a while before they are ready to start running Space Boot Camp on their own...


The bulk of the personnel will come from Air Force Space Command (7 space wings), and a smaller number from the Army Space and Missile Defense Command (2 brigades). Even smaller numbers coming from the Navy and Marine Corps.

Per a DOD press release: "Pending passage, DOD will begin transferring personnel from the Air Force to the new service in fiscal year 2021 -- most of the personnel in the U.S. Space Force will come from the Air Force. Army, Navy and Marine Corps personnel will be affected in later years."

and

"On the military side, the service will look for individuals who will build the culture of the new service. “We want people to be recruited into the Space Force as similar to the way the Marine Corps recruits Marines,” a senior official said. “We don’t recruit [Marines] into the Navy -- they go after the specific kind of people with a vision that is necessary to build that culture.”"
dcfowler
COMMUNICANT
COMMUNICANT
 
Posts: 144
Joined: Mon Nov 27, 2006 5:06 am
Location: Eugene, OR

Advertisement

Email Converter - our sponsor


Return to AMERICA - MILITARY BRANCH & RANK INSIGNIA

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests

cron

Search

User Menu